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 PSA Warhost of Ynnead

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Fri Mar 24 2017, 20:33

Mods please move this or sticky this if you deem necessary.

This is a Public Service Announcement for those playing Ynnari competitively.

BetraytheWorld ran into this at Adepticon and hosed him. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, I believe that this is going to be the ruling at most tournaments, so please check with the event.

You can never get more than 2 soulbursts from the warhost. You cannot soulburst 2 units from different warhosts from the same trigger.

Here is the best explanation as to the reason why. This is based from the BRB rules about Battle-forged Armies and command benefits.

from Galef on Dakkadakka
"This is how multiple Reborn Hosts works:

A unit dies. Pick ONE Ynnari unit within 7" to Soulburst. (Strength From Death rule)
Now an additional unit FROM THAT SAME DETACHMENT may also Soulburst. (Reborn Host command benefit)

If the first unit you picked to Soulburst was from Host A, how the heck are allowed to pick the second unit for Host B?
The second unit from Host B cannot Soulburst because another unit already did, and because it wasn't from Host B, no bonus is given.
The COMMAND BENEFIT is allowed within the detachment.

Think of this scenario: Host A has 7+ units. Host B has LESS than 7 units
If you have a units from both Hosts near a unit that is destroyed, what happens? If the Host B unit Soulbursts, does that allow the Host A unit to Soulburst? or Vice Versa?
One of the Hosts does not meet the requirements, so a second unit cannot be chosen unless it is from the same Host that does meet the requirement
Since the rules for SfD only normally allow 1 unit to Soulburst, Host A & B CANNOT Soulburst off the same kill, meaning a MAX of 2 Soulbursts.....EVER

Using the Gladius free transport bonus is a poor analogy because having 2 Demi Companies + Auxiliary combine into a SINGLE detachment made up of multiple detachments.
2 Reborn Warhosts are always 2 separate detachments."

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Fri Mar 24 2017, 20:59

But if you choose a unit that is composed of model from several detachment for the first soulburst?

exemple:

warhost 1:
archon
3 reavers
5 wyches
(and more stuff irrelevant to the exemple)

Warhost 2
5 kabalites
5 scourges
(and more stuff irrelevant to the exemple)

-The archon is with the kabalite unit.
-every units is in 7'' to simplify the exemple

1- The ennemy kills the reavers.
2- You select your kabalite-archon unit to trigger it's SFD rule.
3- You activate the rule from warhost 1 and trigger an additionnal soulburst to the wyches.
4- You activate the rule from warhost 2 and trigger an additionnal soulburst to the scourge.

Action 3 is confined within the same detachment
Action 4 is confined within the same detachment


Very situational, but I don't see why it shouldn't work.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Fri Mar 24 2017, 22:29

I dont know if it is becouse I have the translated version of the book, becouse english is not my first language or becouse Im dumb as bricks, but I dont see where it is stated in the rules that the unit that triggers the original SfD has to be from the same detachment that the one that receives the additional HoY one.

I already said it in the Adepticon thread, but I think you are giving "additional" a meaning that it doesnt have.

If there are two detachments that have the same benefit, why can one use it but the other can't?

Im so confused. Can someone explain it to me with an analogy that my low IQ brain can understand? maybe using playdooh and lego bricks or something?

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 04:23

It doesn't make sense to me as Soulburst is not a detachment benefit, its a faction one.

The fact you have 7 units (or more) in the detachment gives the following benefit...

"If this Detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed"

There is no caveat from the rules requiring the it to be from the same detachment as the first unit to soulburst. If you are running 2 reborn warhosts with 7+ units each I can not justify not being able to soulburst with 3 units (the original unit plus 1 additional from each RWH) provided I am in range to do so.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 05:52

Yeah, I detailed an argument in the adepticon thread arguing why I still think it should work after the fact. Unfortunately I was too tired to effectively make my argument at the tournament.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 06:06

Sounds like knee-jerk "eldar" nerfs to me.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 08:42

@massaen This. Thanks for wording it properly.

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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 10:14

@Bizarreshowbiz - you are welcome!

As a TO myself - I run 9 events a year with the last event having 70 players - I cant justify the decision made by the TO in this instance. Rules being what they are it feels like they capitulated to the aggravated opponent to placate him

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 14:34

Deleted due to idiocy.


Last edited by Dalamar on Sat Mar 25 2017, 17:54; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 16:01

@Dalamar wrote:
On phone so forgive mistakes.  Wink

Forgiven - because you have some mistakes for sure!

@Dalamar wrote:
OK I needed to research a little before responding.  Here is the issue. SfD is only a faction rule for 3 models. The triumvirate  are the only models with the ynnari faction out of the box. Technically the four formations in the book are aeldari formations not ynnari. Even if the formation has SfD rules interaction, only two of them, and one of the is the triumvirate formation so ynnari faction models. They can't use those rules because the units inside don't get SfD, and the formation does not grant it.

SFD is indeed a faction rule. The 4 formations in the book are 100% ynnari as per the codex

"The following pages present rules for fielding an Ynnari army. Units and Formations taken as part of an Ynnari Formation (pg 119-123) or a Reborn Warhost (pg 126) have the Ynnari Faction in addition to their own Faction."

So first off we have established that ynnari is indeed a faction benefit and that there are several ways to get it - not just by being a member of the triumvirate.

@Dalamar wrote:
The only way to get SfD on our units is from the command benefits of the warhost detachment. The second one grants sfd to any unit in the detachment as well as the stubborn rule thing.  Because it is a command benefit not a faction rule for most of our units it only effects units from the detachment even if we have a second detachment with the same rule.  
So when something dies you check if a units are within 7 inches, check if they have SfD, pick one unit to soulburst SfD rule, check which warhost's command benefit granted SfD. Pick second unit check SfD if same detachment bounus soulburst from 3rd command benefit.

This is flat out wrong - there is NO COMMAND BENEFIT that gives SFD. None. You get it as per my quote from the codex above - by being in 1 of the 5 available detachments. You never 'check which warhosts command benefit granted SFD' because none of them do. That's the faction rule.

@Dalamar wrote:
We must remember SfD is a command benefit not a faction benefit for 99% of our units, so are detachment locked one detachments SfD cannot interact with another's because of core battleforged army rules from BRB.

This again is wrong. NONE of the detachments list SFD as a benefit. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Its a faction benefit. All the Reborn Warhost gives is the following command benefit...

"Warhost of Ynnead: If this Detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."

So, having 1+ Ynnari units on the table (regardless of which detachment they are from) allows 1 unit of them to activate SFD.

The warhost allows ONE ADDITIONAL UNIT to make a soul burst action. So...

A player using a reborn warhost with 7+ units can soulburst twice - once for having a Ynnari faction model on the board and once more because the command benefit of the warhost allows it provided the range limit is met.

A player using a double reborn warhost and both RWH contain 7+ units can soulburst 3 times. once for the ynnari faction rule and once each from the 2 RWH provided they are in range AND that the 2 additional units are from different detachments (ie one from each warhost).

I can understand how it might look like SFD is a command benefit but its 100% not.

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 17:53

Sorry you are correct i am going to delete the post. i read it twice and my dyslexia must have replaced stubborn with soulburst or something. I swear I checked myself twice before I started writing.

I feel so embarrassed.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 18:14

All good mate - no probs!

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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sat Mar 25 2017, 23:23

As someone who hasn't had much a chance to look through the new rules as yet, this interpretation seems to hinge on what is meant by 'additional unit' in the command benefit:

"Warhost of Ynnead: If this Detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."

The two interpretations are either:
1) 'additional unit' means another unit from the same detachment as the one that made the initial Soulburst
2) 'additional unit' means another unit other than the one that made the initial Soulburst

RAW looks pretty clear to me that case 2 is the literal interpretation.

Case 1 requires the interpretation that because the rule is a detachment rule that the units referred to are units in the detachment. There might be a good case for that being the intent, but I would have to agree with Massaen on this one.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Sun Mar 26 2017, 06:06

I concur.
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StackedDeck
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Tue Mar 28 2017, 02:44

For what it's worth, I think Adepticon were misinterpreting the rules. SfD says pick one unit (not one per detachment, just one total). Then the warhost allows you to pick one additional from that detachment. Two Warhost detachments should allow two additional units for a total of three.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: PSA Warhost of Ynnead   Tue Mar 28 2017, 07:19

Well, right or wrong, that interpretation was basically a death sentence for my list, since my list was basically 3 powerful units that I expected to EACH get to soulburst every turn.

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