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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Thu Mar 16 2017, 20:33

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Because he's an Imperial player and has probably spent all his drop pods far, far away from his Knight Titan, so anything that could hurt it is too far away to be effective or has bigger fish to fry, like Venoms or Mandrakes. Alternatively he's an Imperial player and has a brain cramp where he would fire everything else first and save the Scourges for last.

The number of Space Marines players I've met who have any semblance of tactical understanding could be counted on one hand.

Edit: I forgot what we were talking about.

I disagree with it. The Yncarne has a huge "Please kill me" sign over his head. It's a lord of war, it looks awesome, it's only a monstruous creature. Pretty sure most player will shoot it down, if they have the right weapon at their disposal. Especially with the soulburst ability.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Thu Mar 16 2017, 21:33

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Because he's an Imperial player and has probably spent all his drop pods far, far away from his Knight Titan, so anything that could hurt it is too far away to be effective or has bigger fish to fry, like Venoms or Mandrakes. Alternatively he's an Imperial player and has a brain cramp where he would fire everything else first and save the Scourges for last.

The number of Space Marines players I've met who have any semblance of tactical understanding could be counted on one hand.

Edit: I forgot what we were talking about.

That is my point. The rare instances that the Yncarne would ever be more useful than a wraithknight require so much manufacturing that you might make america great again by yourself. Very Happy


@Ynneadwraith wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Ynneadwraith wrote:

Unless of course you're playing 4d Wizard Chess and setting up Soulbursts in the enemy turn to position for your turn.

Of course you should be setting up soulbursts in the enemy turn to position for your turn. That's basically what this army is all about.

Ah, I thought you implied earlier that the primary use of Soulburst was to provide extra shooting, hence why the Yncarne doesn't have particularly much use for it.

Is it more that most of the army benefits more from movement, but the Yncarne doesn't somehow?

Boom! Nailed it. The Yncarne only moves 6 inches to begin with, so an extra movement phase is giving you 2 of something that sucks to begin with, so the value of the extra movement is negligible. You also can't start the Yncarne on the board, so you're already giving up the utility of an entire round of actions/warp charge generation that any other model would be able to fully contribute.

Soulburst DOES buff shooting units the most, even when said shooting units use it for movement. It allows things like turbo boosting some jetbikes during your opponent's turn, or in the psychic phase of your own turn in order to be in the rear armour arc of enemy vehicles in the following shooting phase.

Sometimes it will be more beneficial for a shooting unit to shoot twice with soulburst. Other times, repositioning to make their 1 shooting phase better will be best. In either case, it's still shooting units that benefit the most from soulburst because assaulting is still limited by things like turbo boosting, and unlike shooting, soulburst assaults don't get a COMPLETE extra round of assaulting with their soulburst.

So basically, shooting units will almost always be able to shoot twice in order to maximize soulburst effectiveness, but melee units will generally only get to attack once per turn, even if they successfully soulburst and assault a second unit.

There are ways to implement assault into a reborn army effectively. It's just that, inherently, ranged units are better at using soulburst in almost every way. I'll likely be willing to elaborate further on this, with more specific examples after Adepticon.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Thu Mar 16 2017, 22:46

Yeah, I am first and foremost considering the threat of shooting. I'd be aiming to park it somewhere where it won't have to endure much shooting - but I'd just have to see how likely it is that a unit of mine dies on an opponent's turn, and whether or not that unit's footprint allows for the Yncarne to arrive somewhere where they can avoid some firepower.

I'd constantly focus on keeping an eye out for any other unit dying somewhere where the Ynnari could run to for relative safety - but that will of course take a good lot of experience for me to see how often it is. It can warp out of combat, so I'm also going to look for fearless units it won't slaughter in one turn, so it can hide in a combat until something else dies where it can warp to safety and do another charge.

I will admit that the bubble benefits are a bit weird. I'll probably ignore them though, it's just not worth pushing for them if it'd mess up it's survivability.

(Also, I am mainly using it cos I like the way it looks, and I despise Craftworld Eldar with a passion so Wraithknights are off the table for me!)
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Thu Mar 16 2017, 22:59

Ah gotcha. 6" x 2 is still only 12", the base movement for something to be considered even slightly mobile. Add onto that the fact that it can't make use of soulburst for shooting and it's not as valuable of a mechanism as it is for other units. It still has its uses, it's just that its uses for mobility is directly related to existing mobility the unit has.

Still, will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with some interesting uses for it. I certainly haven't read any reports of it being used yet so it'd be interesting to see.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Fri Mar 17 2017, 00:04

I haven't used it yet as I only just primed the thing today and will take a while painting it but I guarantee I will be able to use it and its Dragonball Z powers effectively. Is it as good as a Wraithknight? No, but the Wraithknight is undercosted. Is it as good as a Daemonprince? Yes. Very yes.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Fri Mar 17 2017, 02:55

As a big fan of our new daemon prince (she's actually got the daemon rule!) I'm seriously waiting for someone's awesome idea to use her in a good way Wink

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Fri Mar 17 2017, 18:34

Well, I'm not expecting miracles, so neither should you guys - but eh, it could be fun, and I'm all for units that are actually fun (as opposed to GW's own brand of FUN*)

*note: Fun here may translate to a terrible unit that actively causes you to lose. Enjoy your Pyrovore kids!
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Fri Mar 17 2017, 19:12

I've been having loads of success with Yncarne. He is actually really survivable with an innate 5++ and FNP. On top of that the teleport thing is really good if you use it correctly. In combat he is a boss. So far my kill record is a daemon prince, screamer star, blood thirster, quite a few tac squads, and more that I can't remember ATM. She has won me more than one game. I've actually had better luck with it than with a WK. My problems with the WK and Yannari is that they don't play well together. As mentioned, you want to use SB for shooting. This means that a WK with D-cannons can be cut down in combat with a dedicated squad because you don't have an invul. It also means the sword and board don't get to benefit from SB very often, if at all. The WK is a huge distraction carnifex in my list whilst the Yncarne is a precision scapel. I 've also had it whiff when I played it wrong. I'm taking it to a RTT ITC tournament tomorrow and GT in 2 weeks so we'll see if I'm right. In tons of play testing it's been an allstar.

Now in full disclosure I'm running 6 units of reavers (3x3 and 3x6) and 4 units of scatbikes with 8 val's wrath batteries. I make anywhere close to my end of the table inhospitable and their end is swamped in bikers. I get plenty of SB action and The Yncarne pops up and takes care of bussiness. It really neuters riptide wing, it just walks through them. With smart play Yncarne can chose his targets. My only weakness so far is deathstars, those I tend to run away from and outscore.

I wasn't sold at first either, but after lackluster WK performance in my Yanarri lists, I've gone to Yncarne and it's been all win for me since then.
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Fri Mar 17 2017, 22:06

Well, mileage may vary, depending on how you use components. No one will have a lot of luck with the Yncarne against me, particularly with my adepticon list. You'll be able to see why in about a week.

But in every list I make, I have a rock solid option for taking out a wraithknight quickly. Anything that can do that can also do the same to an Yncarne.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Fri Mar 17 2017, 22:24

Depending on my work schedule I might be able to get a skirmish in with it next week and test it out, but my theory is that it'll blow a WK out of the water.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 02:44

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Depending on my work schedule I might be able to get a skirmish in with it next week and test it out, but my theory is that it'll blow a WK out of the water.

First it has to get to the wraithknight. If you know what the Yncarne's teleport ability is, it's pretty easy to avoid. The problem with the Yncarne is that in order to be most effective, you have to activate its teleport in your opponent's turn so that you can charge in your own turn. Unfortunately, that means you're depending on your opponent to play poorly, and/or make bad deployment decisions.

Any unit that requires my opponent to make bad decisions in order for my unit to function properly is a bad unit.

What this means is that anecdotal evidence of people playing the Yncarne and having good results with her doesn't necessarily mean the Yncarne is good. It could very easily mean their opponents were just uneducated regarding Ynnari rules, or just not particularly bright players.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 03:01

I'm going to use it to sit on objectives

/thread

Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 03:05

I'm drunk and at a St. Patricks day party against my will so take this with the appropriate grains of salt.

@Betraytheworld if you can't see how this unit is gods gift I seriously doubt all the bombast you have going on in your sig. Any unit that requires my opponent to make bad decisions is an auto-pick because 99% of people who play this game in the competitive circuit just netlist and have no idea what they're bringing. I take their ignorance and beat them with it like my ex-wife beat me with a tire iron. This is how I have a positive W/L ratio with my DE in the tournaments I enter.

Basically if you can't see how this unit is supposed to work you need to GET ON MY LEVEL SCRUB.

Now watch this drive.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 03:31

On your level? Not interested, thanks. Smile

Now sure, I could see the unit being useful against "scrubs" and "baddies" that might get you to the upper 50% of a 400 person tournament, but if I just wanted to have a positive W/L rating, I wouldn't bother spending so much time and effort analyzing and discussing tactics.

You have to remember, 50% of all people are below average intelligence, so if you're OK with only being in the top 50%, congratulations, you can beat people of below average skill and/or intelligence. For some people, that may be fine with them. I set my bar a little higher, but I understand if you're comfortable where you're at. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 03:36

That does it kid. I will take the yncarne to De-la-war, I will get top 8, and I will prove this thing and Scatbikes and spiders are a winning combo with the yncarne. All I need is a weekend off and about 6 vibro cannons. And maybe some asperine judging by the size of this wizard staff I'm toting.

I am the wisest wizard.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 04:25

Considering that at the time of this posting there are only 9 people registered for De-la-war and it's only a month away, getting in the top 8 shouldn't be hard. Why don't you try getting top 8 in a real GT, like NOVA or Adepticon?

Then maybe I'll pay heed to your sagely advice. But good luck in your "GT" nonetheless. Rolling Eyes


DISCLAIMER: For anyone NOT aware, we are not angrily arguing or making mean-spirited jabs here. This is 2 guys(1 drunk) just making playful jabs at one another, and no modding is necessary. We are participating in a well-meaning and playful debate that may only look bad from outsiders not "in the know". Also, TeenageAngst is a baddie.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 04:28

They do have a NOVA prep game over in the Raids sub. Maybe I'll luck out and get the opportunity to put an end to this there. Wink It's smack dab in the roller derby gap so I might actually be able to swing it this year. I won't be bringing any triumvirate members tho.

To keep SOME on topic content in my comment: I'm dead serious about holding objectives with the Yncarne, especially in an actual DE CAD with wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 04:36

Idk about NOVA since that's supposed to be the first 8th edition GT but de-la-war is in the BAG kid. I have this. Also you don't know **** about pokemon or w/e it is we're playing.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 04:50

Well, you're 100% on the money about me not knowing crap about pokemon.

That said, I don't consider the results of a small tournament, capped at 64 players but looking more like they'll have 25 to be telling. Those are local tournament figures, not a GT.

Get in the top 8 of a real GT with your cookie cutter netlist advice and I'll have a newfound respect for your positions. My position is that innovation wins tournaments, not using what everyone else is using.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 04:59

And my position is that you're a poopyhead.

I'm gonna WIN de-la-war, and then I'm gonna win NOVA, and then I'm gonna stop puking in this trash bag.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 05:16

@TeenageAngst wrote:
And my position is that you're a poopyhead.

I'm gonna WIN de-la-war, and then I'm gonna win NOVA, and then I'm gonna stop puking in this trash bag.


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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 11:52

Just finished mine so I will test the Yncarne for the first time next week. I can't wait to try her and to see how my opponent must adapt his plans to prevent her to pop in his backfield. With infiltrators and flat-out jetbikes I will have a lots of units in his deployment zone.

I totally dont care she's not as strong as another undercosted unit. What bothers me is the limited psyker discipline choice. I will give a try to the revevant discipline but I'm not impressed.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 12:21

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

But in every list I make, I have a rock solid option for taking out a wraithknight quickly. Anything that can do that can also do the same to an Yncarne.

That's exactly my point. Everyone has a way to deal with a WK which is why running one hot and up in their grill simply gets it killed. You can't kill Yncarne if he isn't on the table and if you're running a CC list to deal with a WK it will never get a whiff of Yncarne as you won't be able to catch him. Yncarne isn't easy to play and he takes a lot of finesse with your whole army, but to immediately write him off as a worse choice than a WK in a Yannari army is a rather unimaginative way to play the army. Most people will just try to play Yannari as another way to play the same ol same lists with soulburst. I still think that those lists will do worse than they would as plain old Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 17:21

OK, well you go ahead and be imaginative. I'd never discourage someone from trying to be innovative and try new things. I'm quite the opposite, in fact. The problem is that when people get an idea in their head that something will be cool, they don't seem to want to hear from other people that it's been tried and failed due to X. Either way, give it a shot. Very Happy

As TA said before, the vast majority of players are casual, and don't keep up on all of the other armies rules, so there will be plenty of people you can surprise with Ynnari rules for the next year or so. In my experience, those aren't the players you see at large 200+ people tournaments, which is what I plan and prepare for.

I see the theoretical use of the Yncarne, and it's cool to think about. But when your skilled opponent knows what the Yncarne can do, and you start brainstorming about the various situations in which you'll be able to actually pull off the things you're imagining, calculating ALL of the variables, you realize it's actually pretty rare without putting the Yncarne in significant danger of being killed without being able to assault.

Quote :
The only time the Yncarne is good is when either:

a.) Your opponent doesn't know how the Yncarne works.
or
b.) Your opponent isn't smart enough to avoid advantaging the Yncarne with target selection/positioning.

There are plenty of people who will fit into one of the above 2 categories. I just don't play those people, so I don't plan for my opponents to be uneducated and/or unskilled.

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PostSubject: Re: The Yncarne's potential   Sat Mar 18 2017, 17:37

Even good players have only a cursory grasp of rarely played armies. It's how my shadowseers are so effective. Once people know what they do they will lose some of their charm but phantasmancy is so powerful that they're still an auto-pick. The Yncarne is unique in that it can force your opponent into no-win scenarios when your army is built around using it.

Ynnari are Dark Eldar in Craftworld colors when it comes to playstyle. The lists might look similar to normal CWE, but don't let that fool you, the two armies play entirely differently. That's why I don't buy BTWs criticism, he doesn't seem to acknowledge that.

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