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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 06:43

Quote :
Seeing as Dark Lances in general aren't a points-worth pick, would making them Salvo 2/1 work (alongside Aerial Assault). Basically double the firepower of a stationaary Ravager, and also allow Scourges to shoot them on the move. Might justify their price tag then (or would that just be too nasty)

While this would be an interesting mechanic for infantry, I think we have to remember that vehicles automatically have the Relentless Special Rule, ignoring the penalties of Salvo.

It would work for infantry, and certainly be an interesting mechanic, however, it might need to be reworked to get it to work like you imagine it.

Personally, I'd like Ravangers to be our access to some of our heavier weaponry. Like it can replace a Dark Lance with a Void Lance, or take an assortment of missiles.

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 07:15

Haywire Ravager could be fun.
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Srota
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 07:24

Since our army is pretty much all about mobility and the ability to get around the board fairly quickly, perhaps the ravager could have something that would allow it to move at full speed or jink without snap firing, call it something like "suspensor projectors" or something, getting mobility without the snap firing would be a big help for the ravager and would definitely avoid us having to just park them in the backfield and snipe if we want to keep it safe.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 07:40

@TheBaconPope, missile raveger!
3x4 one shot missiles batteries, take 2, laugh like a madman at horde armies.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 08:13

Everything seems to be twin linked these days, so why not just make the dark lances twin linked? I played a game against a guard player who had a missile tank (not sure what exactly it was) shoot barrages at me and if he missed would just say "Twin linked" and roll again. Not sure if he was cheating but he kept doing it. If an (unlimited use... grrr) missile blast blast can be twin linked, why can't our lances?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 08:16

Because they don't come in a double barrel option on the sprue.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 09:45

So you give it a special "targeting matrix" rule - all weapons fired have the twin-linked special rule.

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PsychicHobo
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 09:50

Honestly there's enough space on the damn thing, why not make it a transport? Though that wouldn't really add anything, but honestly you can't tell me there's no space on that but there is on a Venom.

I feel some kind of speedy move and shoot thing should be the best option. It's based on a Raider chassis, not some kind of immobile tank like think. Just adding 6" to the distance it can shoot at full BS with would make it feel like a genuine Dark Eldar vehicle and less of a hastily fortified transport.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 09:54

I always use ravagers in my army. I usually bring three, when the points allow it. Two with dark lances and one with dizzies. They are one of my most usefull units. They usually kill their lot before they die, and they keep the focus off my venoms.  The dizzie one comes in from reserve to remove meqs and termies from play. It has become the most effective tool I have against marines in drop pods.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 10:30

I don't think giving it twin-linked would be enough. Statistically, it would be like giving the Ravager a 4th Dark Lance. Of course, that's nice and I'd take that buff but I think the Ravager needs more than that.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 10:46

Added speed and a points reduction. The ability to fire all weapons at full BS moving up to 12", and costed at ~80-90pts (maybe, just guessing with that).

GW wins either way because people who don't like Ravagers might buy some, and people who already like Ravagers can fit one more in their list so still buy some.

Everyone wins! Us, GW, and the banks offering us increasingly tenuous lines of credit Wink

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 20:54

Skulnbonz wrote:
BetrayTheWorld wrote:


...Regarding ravagers, I think they'd need a pretty significant points decrease, along the lines of hornets. Maybe 75-80 points for a base ravager, +5 for each dark lance for a final cost of 90-95 for a 3 lance ravager.
I think even that is way overpriced, especially if compared to a Hornet.

At 80 points, a Hornet has 4 shots at strength 8, AP2
It can scout
It can turbo boost and still shoot (a 96" threat range! 12 scout, 12 move, 24 turbo, 48" range weapon)
it has a 48" range weapon
It can be taken in squadrons
It has acute senses
It can outflank
It has armor 11, with 2 hull points.

With your REDUCED cost ravager, it has:
3 shots (only 2 can fire if moved over 6" at full BS)
36" range weapons
Lance special rule
Open topped (detriment)
3 hull points, armor 11
night vision


So you are PAYING an extra 15 points for less shots, less range, easier to destroy, cant scout, outflank, turbo and shoot, turbos LESS than a hornet, and is inferior in almost every single aspect.

Rules staying as they are now, in comparison to Hornets, Ravagers need to be in the 50-60 point range.

Now, that being said, not sure if that is because ravagers are so overcosted, or hornets are undercosted, but if given the choice between a ravager or a hornet at 80 points, i would go hornet almost every time.

Yeah, I intentionally priced it higher because the hornet is severely underpriced. However, I used the hornet as an example because we need to be able to compete with things that exist in the meta, like the hornet. So I suggested changes that bring it closer in line with a hornet, but not so extreme as the hornet itself.

Also, I meant to mention that it should have the aerial assault rule back as well. I think with the aerial assault rule and costing 75 points with dissies or 90 points with lances it would be pretty decent. That results in the return of the aerial assault rule and an extra 150 points in a list that includes 6 ravagers(from the current prices).

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drdoom222222
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Thu Mar 16 2017, 21:06

I love the Ravager model, and a few tweaks could make it more useful.

- replace any dissie for a darklance for free. (not the current 5 points each option)
- bring back Aerial Assualt (shoot all weapon if it moves six or more.
- make them twin linked for 5-10 points (for all 3 weapons)
- upgrade to void lances for 3-5 points each.
- Focused Fire - if all 3 dark lances hit resolve the damage as if it was hit by a Destroyer weapon.
- maybe give it stealth for the turn it arrives via deep strike.
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Srota
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 02:33

I think, in addition, they really need squadron benefits in keeping with those of the other codices.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 02:40

There have been plenty of excellent suggestions in this thread on why Ravagers are rubbish and how to make them viable, which really makes me wonder how the hell the writers of our codex managed to miss every single one of them!! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

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Srota
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 02:48

Probably because they didn't care and just wanted to sell more covens stuff?
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drdoom222222
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 03:15

Hell even if they just made d.lances free instead of 5 points each to upgrade (brings them closer to what they should cost), would be an easy errata to implement adding back in ariel assault would also be easy enough as well.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 03:18

I wonder, did anybody who run 2+ Ravagers in his list ever tried to swap them for Forgeworld Reapers?

On paper the Reaper seems more powerful, but also unreliable due to it's single shot. However, I imagine running more than one should offset that problem.


Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Fri Mar 17 2017, 03:21; edited 1 time in total
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 03:20

Adding in Aerial Assault would be the easiest thing to do. Sounds like a perfect formation bonus for a '3 Ravagers' formation...

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 04:13

Actually stuck the sponsons on my models for once and played a game with Ravagers yesterday to see what all the fuss was about. With 3 of them on the board, 2 died to enemy tanks and did hardly anything. One destroyed a scout sentinel squadron and a Hellhound. My deepstriking Scourges/Archon with Heat Lances and a Blaster though destroyed 4 Russ tanks.

Can't say as I'm impressed. I guess they drew fire but I had Mandrakes for that.

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ooftaJ
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 06:45

Still happy with the Ravager. Great as anti-infantry and anti-monstrous gunboat. Scooting around with three disintegrater cannons. Would like 1-3 squadron option as unit type.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 07:37

Usually when I use them, I manage to kill a few broadside, some crisis. Sometime a vehicle. They rarely shine, but pay back their points most of the time.
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PsychicHobo
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 10:05

The Strange Dark One wrote:
I wonder, did anybody who run 2+ Ravagers in his list ever tried to swap them for Forgeworld Reapers?

On paper the Reaper seems more powerful, but also unreliable due to it's single shot. However, I imagine running more than one should offset that problem.

Well, it's more expensive, only has one shot as you say, and comes with Enhanced Aethersails which are weirdly pointless on it.

In fact, that one shot arguably makes it less likely to damage a vehicle. One shot means you only need to miss once, or they pass a save, or you roll for 1 hit on the D3, and even then that could still be a 1. Three lance shots on the other hand are relatively likely to punch off a hull point, and offer a much higher potential to do penetrating damage too.

The main benefit is the blast, as it suddenly becomes a near guaranteed hit that can hurt vehicle clusters quite severely (as well as mess up hordes). You have to look at your meta to see whether that big ass Haywire blast will do anything worthwhile though.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Fri Mar 17 2017, 16:51

Don't forget you still get the S7 hit in addition to the haywire ones, so potentially 4 hull points.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers   Sat Mar 18 2017, 01:44

PsychicHobo wrote:
The Strange Dark One wrote:
I wonder, did anybody who run 2+ Ravagers in his list ever tried to swap them for Forgeworld Reapers?

On paper the Reaper seems more powerful, but also unreliable due to it's single shot. However, I imagine running more than one should offset that problem.

Well, it's more expensive, only has one shot as you say, and comes with Enhanced Aethersails which are weirdly pointless on it.

In fact, that one shot arguably makes it less likely to damage a vehicle. One shot means you only need to miss once, or they pass a save, or you roll for 1 hit on the D3, and even then that could still be a 1. Three lance shots on the other hand are relatively likely to punch off a hull point, and offer a much higher potential to do penetrating damage too.

The main benefit is the blast, as it suddenly becomes a near guaranteed hit that can hurt vehicle clusters quite severely (as well as mess up hordes). You have to look at your meta to see whether that big ass Haywire blast will do anything worthwhile though.

I am well aware of that.
However, if you take more than one, their hits should averge out and you are pretty much guarenteed that at least one of them hits. That's why I was asking for 2+.

Not to mention that you can remove potentially 4 HP (initial shot + D3 Haywire). I'm not saying that it's better than the Ravager, but I'd like to hear some first-hand experience. Preferably from a reference battle report.
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