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 A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 13:08

That would be glorious!!! Very Happy

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 13:39

You could daisy chain assaults on him.

(Several small crappy units, like solo beastmasters or lhaemeans move up. One charges. When it dies, another Soulbursts and charges. In this fashion you keep him locked forever, since he's never engaged with more than one of them at a time.)
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 13:55

Haha! That's even better! If they're part of a Reborn Warhost then you get to charge another Hellion at him, and also get another Soulburst to shoot something else Smile

60pts to tie up a ~300pt model for half the game, and you get a Soulburst factory out of it Wink

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 14:53

And thus, the great trolling of girlyman begins!

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 15:25

Is this in actual game against opponent who knows his stuff really viable tactic?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 15:48

It's situational but it could work. The problem will be getting all the chaff units across the table to get into combat in the first place. Soulburst helps there too.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 15:59

Yeah, a bunch of 10pt Beastmasters would scream 'kill me so I can soulburst', while not being very killy. That would put the dead last on the target priority.

Little do they know that there's a dastardly plan afoot Wink

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 16:14

It will certainly be fun to try.  Wink I have had a similar tactic work against two knights, so it could translate well to the head smurf. I think the trick is to use units which the opponent can not ignore, like min. squads of reavers with caltrops.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 18:52

The single units of khymera using soulburst to daisy chain assaults is a good, novel idea @Jimsolo, and will actually be funny and useful in a pickup game or other game where you KNOW you're facing girlyman, but it's not nearly as useful when trying to put together TAC competitive lists for tournaments and such. Individual khymera like that award killpoints, which wins/loses games in tournament situations.

Just as an example, Adepticon that is coming up this month has made killpoints a part of EVERY scenario now, so it's not something you can just discount as "oh well, I lose the 1 game that has killpoints rules". Now it's something you have to plan to deal with in every game, which hurts MSU in general.

And amazingly enough, the cutoff for new book releases that Adepticon will allow is March 11th, the day Girlyman's book comes out. lol!

Count Adhemar wrote:

That might work if you can find something that is Fearless and on a large-ish base. He gets to attack everything within 1" of him. If you're on a large base you can position your models so that they block each other off from being in base contact with Girlyman. He can kill pretty much anything within 1" of him but then you pile in and attack back. With a sufficiently large unit (or several smaller units) that could be done for a couple of turns.

The things that could do this aren't really that viable in a real list, or they are viable, but not appropriate to use as chaff. Most armies don't have access to anything capable of doing this. Off the top of my head, the only armies I think could pull this off would be armies that either aren't competitive, or aren't run in the manner in which they'd need to be run in order to do this, because that way is not competitive. Examples:

Guard:
50 Conscripts with a commissar could tie him up for some rounds, particularly if you strung them out a long distance before charging so that the furthest model is still like 40 inches away once combat starts.

Nids:
Again, would need to stretch a large unit out a good deal before starting combat to ensure many of them don't make it into "engagement" range, which is actually within roughly 3" of girlyman. Then you'd need to keep them within synapse range of a synapse creature to stay fearless. I can't recall at the moment...can you apply wounds to unengaged models? In either case, it's a delicate balance between staying far enough away and not too far that you can't get a model in base to base once both sides make combat move pile-ins, because if you can't make base to base after all models have piled in, combat ends.

Space Wolves: They could probably do it with some sort of huge alpha wolf unit, or maybe if they tied him up with one of their thunderwolf cavalry deathstars, so long as it somehow had invisibility.

Which sort of brings me to my point on the matter: Most armies can't defeat him with anything that reasonably fits into their list, and in order for most armies to just stalemate him and tie him up in combat, it requires some sort of invisible deathstar situation where the person likely spent more on what they're using to tie girlyman up than what it cost to just buy your own girlyman.

I think GW just wants us all to play ultra marines.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:06

Wyches charging in a congaline, first 3 die upto 3/4" away from Guilliman, next cannot attack end of battle pile in... Also wyches 4++ would actually play a role. With unit of 10 it might actually be possible with maximum congaline and bad charge roll (less that 4") to keep Guilliman occupied few rounds.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:26

I think wounds can still be applied to models outside of engagement range, so he could still potentially kill 6 or 7 wyches even if there are only 3 within engagement range, unless I'm mistaken.

And because wyches would never do damage to him, they'd always lose combats by 2-7 wounds, and would often get caught in a sweeping advance, which is the problem. They aren't fearless and don't have an easy way to make them fearless.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 20:12

Ah, this all reminds me of those wonderful experiences with Malekith the Eternity King.

I'm very curious as to how this guy got greenlit. Magnus was bad enough...
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 20:17

Oh that's easy:

P1: "Okay so we're committing to kicking things even further into overdrive by allowing all the main eldar factions to be taken together and be able to take actions out of sequence"
P2: "Yep."
P1: "Wait...What about our largest playerbase?"
P2: "Oh don't worry about that we'll just put out something for Ultramarines that makes those bonus' irrelevant."
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Thu Mar 09 2017, 23:22

I know it's not Commorite but how would a Wrathknight fair against 'Girly-man'?

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 00:41

A wraithknight without a D-sword would lose spectacularly, possibly in the first round of combat without ever getting to swing.

A wraithknight with a D-sword could possibly win, if it survives a round of attacks from papa smurf. If papa smurf gets 1 or 2 melee D-hits on a wraithknight, said wraithknight probably won't be swinging back.

That said, a sword and board wraithknight is one of the models with the best chance against papa smurf in melee. I'd still put that chance at somewhere well below 50% to win, simply due to papa smurfs better saves. Both of them are wounding on 2+, but papa smurf hits on 3+ compared to the wraithknight hitting on 5+, and papa smurf has 6 attacks compared to the wraithknight's 4.

Basically, the wraithknight would have to 6 him out on the D table, after managing to survive through initiative 6 to his turn on initiative 5. Without doing all the math, I'd say Girlyman has about a 50% chance of killing a wraithknight without the wraithknight getting to swing back. Then the same would hold true for the wraithknight swinging back(if he got to), having a 50% chance to kill Girlyman.

So with a 50% chance of dying before getting to swing, followed by roughly a 50% chance of killing girlyman before having to weather another round of attacks, I'd estimate a sword and board wraithknight's overall chance of victory to be about 25%. I seriously doubt a wraithknight is going to often get a second set of swings if he can't close the deal in the first round.

Guilliman's higher WS, Attacks, and Initiative are the difference makers here, with initiative being really important. If the knight knew it was going to get it's attacks even if it died, it'd probably be pretty good at killing Guilliman. Too bad the "Runes of Battle" power "Enhance" can't be used on OTHER units. That might make a wraithknight the answer to Girlyman.

It's ultimately going to come down to how many "D" shots Girlyman can get in, and how early. I'd be sort of salty if I paid for a sword and board wraithknight, threw it against girlyman, and it died before it got to even swing once. Not saying it can't beat him, but there is a significant risk of total and absolute failure. And that failure hurts a lot. It's too iffy for me to be interested in entering that sort of matchup. If I wanted risk like that, I'd play games of chance instead of games of strategy. Wink

That said, if I was on the other side, I'd want to keep girlyman away from a sword and board wraithknight as well, so even if you don't want to risk actually attacking him, against many opponents, you might be able to use the wraithknight as area denial against girlyman. But I wouldn't depend on it. I've learned to never depend on my opponents to recognize and shy away from a risky, bad idea. So they can call your bluff and potentially put you into a position where one of the two of you is likely going to win or lose the game over a couple coin flips. If at all possible, I attempt to insulate myself from my opponents decisions, good or bad.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 02:27

The Ynnari lists being bandied about currently have seen a significant number of lists that are using ultra cheap units to enhance target saturation and generate Soulbursts. The idea of small unit daisy chains to tie up beasts like Gulliman is something those lists will be able to do anyway without having to take "this is my Primarch sideboard" inclusions.

The playstyle of such a list doesn't appeal to me, (it's radically different than all the other list types I play, and it would take me too long to master the techniques required) but the higher Kill Point potential is a weakness that can be mitigated, not a barrier that can't be overcome.

I look forward to seeing the community develop those lists in the future. I imagine Lawrence might have some better insights than I would. I'd be very surprised if he couldn't pull of those kinds of armies and put up some W's with them.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 04:58

If it helps, the ancestors grace blessing is targeted right? Giving the WK the same I6 and an extra attack and WS which would make a difference (hitting on 4's instead of 5's at simultaneous). Also it's worth noting that the WK is all the time D so his wounds are going to do 1-3 if they get through the 3+ invuln even without the 6 on the table.

Still wouldn't do it myself, but the blessing changes things a little.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 05:08

Having just my copy of IA Apocolypse (SE), the Skyscythe Slaughterhost Formaton looks like a great tool to take a chunk of the Smurfs unit out.

Had a discussion with a dude on FB about it and the Tantalus' alone in that formation can lay on some serious pain when they arrive from DS.

Plus nothing scatters and extra Storm Shockwave attack would be brutal against any vehicles coupled with the rest of the formations capabilities.

It's not an answer to killing the girly man but it would do some serious damage to units around him

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 05:35

As debuffin guilliman is hard, good choice could be to try buff wk with sword
invisibility
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prescience
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 05:42

@smith1186 Unfortunately since that is explicitly for apocalypse it isn't applicable for many of us.

Back to the Wraithknight discussion: Not one person mentioned the stomps, is that because we don't expect the fight to go to 2 turns no matter what or mere forgetfulness? a stomp of 6 and he's still gone no matter what right?
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 05:59

For strict tournaments, yeah the formation is not ok.

But for house games with dudes that like cheese and overkill, I see no problem bringing it since so much of Apoc is now ok in 40k games.

If I'm facing a Tau player with triple rip tides, I'm definitely gonna bring it

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 06:03

Meh. Even in that scenario it's not necessary but realize I'm speaking as someone who actively strives to push the limits of BB allies, so to you absolutely do what you need to even the playing field in that context. You're major point is certainly tenable tho.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 09:58

I never heard of that formation. Could you give me an update about it @smith1186

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 10:11

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:

That might work if you can find something that is Fearless and on a large-ish base. He gets to attack everything within 1" of him. If you're on a large base you can position your models so that they block each other off from being in base contact with Girlyman. He can kill pretty much anything within 1" of him but then you pile in and attack back. With a sufficiently large unit (or several smaller units) that could be done for a couple of turns.

The things that could do this aren't really that viable in a real list, or they are viable, but not appropriate to use as chaff. Most armies don't have access to anything capable of doing this. Off the top of my head, the only armies I think could pull this off would be armies that either aren't competitive, or aren't run in the manner in which they'd need to be run in order to do this, because that way is not competitive.

Not really appropriate for this forum but the tactic immediately made me think of Flesh Hounds. 50mm bases, Fearless (if taken from KDK Codex) and an actual threat in melee so can't just be ignored. I then started thinking about taking a small KDK allied contingent with a boat load of min-sized Cultist units to throw into combat. This actually meshes rather nicely with an Ynnari list as every time a cultist unit dies they generate a Blood Tithe point and an Ynnari unit gets to Soulburst. Every 5 Blood Tithe points lets you summon a unit of 5 Flesh Hounds which can then be thrown into combat and the cycle continues...

There is the slight problem of them being CTA allies but I play KDK anyway so I might give it a whirl for a laugh.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Fri Mar 10 2017, 13:27

He's a MC that can move 6". He is slow as you know what. Being DE and Eldar, we are quick, light footed, maneuverable. Use that to keep away and kill everything else. If you need to, throw a distraction unit his way to keep him from getting into your stuff too much. Speed is the key here. I think Robby G is quite balanced for his points and rules. Never being able to join a unit and being fairly slow will make him a non-option for a lot of players...but if you're like me you are going to try to use him (Marines my first love).

So despite me just saying speed is the way to go, you need to be careful of his psychic support he will no doubt get. If you can kill the librarians supporting him (potentially throwing him forward 18"!) then you will eventually bring him down. Just need to get on the luckier side of the 50% of the resurrection roll.

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