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 A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take

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PsychicHobo
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 00:09

One thing that's concerning me is that despite the whole army-buffing thing, even a list that does NOT take advantage of his auras will still benefit from him literally sitting on the table and being a massive area denial.


He's slow, but he has a big footprint. And that means with the average charge range of 7" (8" with one of the Command traits he has), he's effectively threatening everything within 14" from his fat ass base. I dunno what the specific size is, but on the whole that is a MASSIVE threat radius for any army.

Hell, WE could take him. It'd be weird, and a bit more expensive to whip up a quick allied CAD, but even with the Come the Apocalypse rules he can still waltz up the side of a board and pretty much through anything that gets in his way.

And he is just really hard to bloody kill.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 00:57

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I've never seen an Avatar of Khaine on a table in a competitive game. It dies too easily to everything OTHER than melta/soulblaze weapons.

So sure, an AoK can tarpit Girlyman. Too bad no one will allow the AoK to make it into combat with girlyman.

Yeah I don't think it was a serious suggestion, but I enjoy it mostly for the poetic justice Wink

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 02:35

How many points is the Avatar?

I'm not suggesting, just spitballing at this point. I've noticed in my games solely seeing him on the enemy side that he's usually a priority. That seems to be common. There might be a way to use that, and build a list where he's not totally useless. That way if you come up against Roboute you have a handy tool in your army that might be an edge against Joe Moneybags who thinks buying the newest Big Bad is going to win him tournies.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 03:23

Can bring a cheap pale court detachment with 3 squads of shining spears (to feed your SfD), an autarch (to manipulate reserves), and an auxiliary of rangers to camp a backfield objective. With the avatar for under 600 points. This gives the avatar the added bonus of a guaranteed 6 inch run for a 12inch move on turn 1 to hopefully set up some charges. 2 of the bikes can turbo boost ahead and stay near your ynnari stuff. 3 min size shining spears are mobile, cheap (for a core) and viably threaten backfield units such as devastaters due to their ap3 attacks. The third unit should probably babysit your autarch, though alternatively he can hide in the Rangers on an objective, discouraging a charge on them and enjoying their shrouding while possibly popping off shots with the uldaneth (spelling??) Rifle and helping with your reserves.

The Rangers, though a bit maligned as a troop when compared to jetbikes are reasonably tough to shift off an objective in cover and can sit back to camp it (something the rest of an ynnari list generally doesn't want to do)

It's not too much of a point sink if (like me you were bringing an autarch anyways) and you use your "taxes" wisely.

The pale court offers a number of potential variations (such as bring a hemlock as your auxiliary as it can't benefit from SFD anyways) though it is limited by the fact that joining an IC to an ynnari squad and vice versa will remove SFD.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 03:43

A Corpse Thief Claw might be a big enough threat to be a Distraction Carnifex to allow the Avatar to close with RG. Either that or a Wraithknight. A less experienced player might underestimate the Avatar when compared to a Wraithknight just by virtue of the sheer size difference. And the Death of the Wraithknight could be used to trigger a Soulburst if Avatar of Khaine can be run in Ynnari (although I believe he cannot) and if you want to be running Ynnari in the first place.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 03:46

He cannot run in Ynnari, an allied detachment is cheapest but a pale court also provides matchless agility to the avatar, on second thought though, most ynnari lists wanted an allied CAD for obsec bikes anyways.

Clarification; the smallest "tax" to the avatar is a bare bone autarch who tries to stay off table or hide, and 2 obsec unit of windriders that everyone wants anyways. That's not a hard sell in any sense IF girly gets too popular in your area.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 09:15

smith1186 wrote:
I know it's not Commorite but how would a Wrathknight fair against 'Girly-man'?

If you can maximise stomps I think you are in with a chance. Charge something else inside that buff bubble and either stomp out of combat onto him or Soulburst into him after the WK swings and kills so RG does not get his attacks that turn. The Sword & Board WK is a solid counter to most unkillable things, it has an uphill struggle here so will need some support from a Farseer to have better than 50/50 odds. Which is probably fair enough as it is 55 points cheaper than RG.

Trickier to pull off but along the same lines - charge the WK into something alongside a DE unit with I6. If the DE kill the target at I6 then Soulburst charge your Sword & Board WK into RG so it can swing at I5 and then stomp at I1 without RG being able to do anything that turn.

Or - FAR more sensible - take the stock WK and just D-cannon RG to death while dancing outside his threat range with your more mobile gargantuan. Add in Soulbursts to try to get 2 shooting attacks in your turn and one in his turn. Ranged D weapons are by far the best counter, especially ones which do not have to get close enough that they are doomed if he rolls that 4+ to get back up.

EDIT: Others have mentioned the disposable beast pack option, you can also use that to Soulburst your WK into RG on I5 to avoid his deadly swings. Essentially just forcing him to overkill something cheap and opening him up to at least 5 D-sword swings plus D3 stomps without reply. This also works if RG charges a screening unit in front of the WK.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 13:55

Didnt harlequins pretty much mulch him with Caresses? Troupe Master and Solitaire hit before Robaute. Also they have fleshbane pistols with AP2. Dark Table also has roll of to remove character from challenge if troup master dies. He cant refuse challenge.

Also Solitaire.

Might not be auto-win cause of his invul, but certainly they have stats to roll dice against him. They have invul to use against his sweep atack and strike sooner or with him. Most of their damaging atacks ignore both armor and toughness. They dont care about S10, cause they are T3 anyway.

Solitair can stand at least 2 rounds against sweep atacks, because he is Eternal Warrior and 3++ doesnt hurt either. And Robaute only make 1 atack against him this way. And i think he cant mix and match way of atacks, so either 6 atacks or Whirling Flame sweep.

Bladestrom also ignores both armor and toughness, you can throw some shots during hit n run moves. Harlies is the way to go with this one.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 17:45

A solitaire is unlikely to Girlyman, but girlyman is probably about 30% to kill a solitaire in 1 round. 6 attacks, hitting 50% of the time, then wounding on 2+ means that, on average(without considering D results), girlyman will do 1 unsaved wound per round against the solitaire who has 3 wounds. Pre-save, it is 2.5 wounds though. If one of those wounds rolls a 6 to wound, making it strength D, there is a far better chance the solitaire dies that round. But sure, a solitaire could potentially tie him up for a couple rounds.

A solitaire isn't going to be good at killing something with 6 wounds, WS9, and a 2+/3++ save. 1 kiss attack can get through per round, and that only has a 6% chance of causing an unsaved wound(50% to hit * 50% to wound * 33% chance to get past invuln save * 66% chance to get past FnP). Then you have rends, which only happen on a 6 to wound. With 5 non-kiss attacks, you're looking at 2.5 hits on average, giving you less than 50% chance per round of getting a single rend, which then wouldn't have that great of a chance of getting through anyhow due to 3++ and FnP.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 18:45

Did you account for the Caress auto wounds?
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 19:39

Quote :
A solitaire is unlikely to Girlyman, but girlyman is probably about 30% to kill a solitaire in 1 round. 6 attacks, hitting 50% of the time, then wounding on 2+ means that, on average(without considering D results)

You are a naysayer, Betray Wink. Il just have to write step by step how is see it.

I was speaking about troupe AND solitaire atacking Raboute Girliman. Not that hard to do considering you have pretty much auto-assault with Solitaire in the form of Blitz.

Survival.
At this point Guillman is surrounded by 10 clowns and Solitaire. He can either do 6 atacks, or do sweep. Sweep means he will do 10 (or less if you play it smart during charge) atacks to Harlies and 1 atack to Solitaire. Or. He make 6 attacks in the general direction of combat. Either way. Troupe Master and Solitaire strike first I7 and I9. Then Troupe and Roboute strike simultaneously. So whatever happens - first round of combat you will dish all of atacks. He is also a Character, so you can Challenge him.

Either way - we see at minimum 2-3 round of combat for Solitaire, and well, probably 2-3 for Harlies. They have 2+ LoS so regular troupers will die first.

Damage.
Caresses dont do damage on 6 to wound, they do auto-wound with no armor saves, on 6s to HIT. That is why it so good a weapon. Which is upgradable by Prescience. Depending how much caresses you take thats up to 52 atack, each to hit of 6s on which is auto-wound so about 8,3 wounds, about 3 wound after save, about 2 after FnP . If you can make past combat phase 2 - you do HnR, shoot with clowns, shoot with army and assault again. Thats a serious chance if dice will throw your way. If he has like 4 wounds - he can be finished off this way.

Yes, he is a pain to take down, but what do you expect he is a fething Primarch.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 19:48

@Jimsolo Just so it gets covered the Avatar of Khaine is 195pts.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 19:48

Jain'zar can remove his weapon, doesn't help her much as he's still str6 ap2... but he can't sweeping attack or D anyone out then, she also drops his WS and I by 5. No check. She may be a more toolbox answer than the avatar.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 19:52

Jain Zar and A Solitaire might be able to do it outright albeit at a 45pt premium over RG but that is not really a major expense.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 19:56

I did wonder about Jain Zar.

Probably not on her own, but attached to something with decent AP2/Fleshbane stuff she could give them the edge.

How would Jain Zar and a squad of Incubi fare? Perhaps not Incubi thinking about it. Grots? Clowns?

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 21:50

I'd like to crunch the math sometime on an Iyanden Boys Choir vs Gulliman. (Five Spiritseers in a transport. Deep Strike, disembark, split up, and then hit their target with five Psychic Shrieks.)

It's always been an incredibly expensive option that I've never seriously considered before the Ynnari, but I'm thinking about sitting down and trying to do the math sometime. (Extensive statistics not being a huge favorite past time of mine.)
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 22:19

Each one that get's through has a 50% chance to do no wounds. He has a 33% chance to deny a given warp charge due to AW, 66% chance to save on his ++ and another 33% chance to save with the FNP.

If anyone wants to check it all that's left is to cascade the likelihoods of each possible successful roll (http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/3_dice_rolls.htm) through the each of those modifiers and multiply by 5.

Since 14+ is the first conflagration of rolls that exceeds the likelihood of a 10 or 11 being rolled I'm not liking the odds. At 20 wounds (all 5 rolling 14) He saves all but 4.44 wounds.

In order to "kill" him and force the coinflip you need to do 27 wounds. If they all get off that's an average roll of 15.4, 4 is 16.75, 3 can't kill him.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sat Mar 11 2017, 22:33

Drat. He's got some special rule that his Ld can't be lowered too doesn't he?

Love the term 'Iyanden Boy's Choir' though Wink

Does mean that when he retaliates you get Soulbursts with your remaining Spiritseers though as they're all ICs.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 02:09

A solitaire with the Hungering Blade could put a bit more pressure on him, if combined with Jain Zar.


Also guys, we need to remember he has all 6 command traits from the main rulebook. So he's rerolling 1's to hit in combat and shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 02:16

Nope. Hungering blade makes them worse. It either replaces the caress which neuters them or replaces the kiss and if you choose to use it requires ~54 hits to kill him.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 02:21

The caress and the kiss are used together. It was faq.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 02:22

Not if you trade one for the hungering blade they don't.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 02:23

You are correct sir.

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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 14:34

Hmm, just redid the maths, and yeah there's definitely a difference. Both chances are still depressingly miniscule though and there's not a lot stopping anything else from joining in and ruining the party.

On the upside, we can always hit and run from him if that happens.
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PostSubject: Re: A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take   Sun Mar 12 2017, 19:45

I'm starting to look at the Yncarne a bit more but not for killing Roboute, but just holding him.

If the Yncarne and Roboute start fighting and Aeldari units are fighting (and dying) around their combat, the the Yncarne can take advantage of Avarar of Ynnead to tarpit Roboute.

Plus if u get Gaze of Ynnead, that's got a 66% of stripping a wound off Roboute
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