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 The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 03:57

Today brought up a new chapter in the rules conundrum that is the Munitorum Armored Container, or as it's colloquially known, the Cargo Crate:

1: Can units be locked in combat with the cargo crate? 3/4 judges ruled I could because it has a toughness value, wounds, and an armor save. 1 ruled I cannot because it doesn't have a weapon skill. The counterpoint was that vehicles do have a weapon skill, and you cannot be locked in combat with a vehicle, thus WS is not a determining factor for being locked in combat with terrain.

2: Can you move enemy units onto the cargo crate? 1 judge ruled yes, because it is terrain. The counterpoint is that since it is a model owned by a player, enemies must maintain a 1" distance from it.

3: Can you fire a blast weapon that hits models on your own cargo crate? 1 judge ruled yes, because it is terrain. The counterpoint was that it is a friendly model, and thus cannot be under the template.

4: Does destroying the cargo container proc the Ynnari Soulburst ability? No judge has weighed in on this one.

5: Can cargo containers be targeted with psychic powers? No judge has weighed in on this one either.

6: Do you automatically hit in close combat against a cargo crate? No judge has given a comment on this one either.

So, TDC, what is your opinion on the rules enigma that is this flabbergastingly badly designed unit?

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:02

Wow, something I don't yet have an opinion on. Very Happy

I'm unfamiliar with the rules for the crate, so I don't feel comfortable taking a position yet. Are the rules in a book, or did they only come with the model?
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:05

As far as I know there is only a slip of paper in the box it comes in, but there may be new rules in the latest book, w/e it is that has all the fortification stuff in it. Planetary Onslaught or w/e.

Also I would like to point out that I have never played someone in a tournament where they fielded these things and I didn't have at least 2 judges called over to hash the rules out on the spot.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:16

@TeenageAngst wrote:

Also I would like to point out that I have never played someone in a tournament where they fielded these things and I didn't have at least 2 judges called over to hash the rules out on the spot.

Sounds like a great way to make new friends! Not. Very Happy

Time is in such short supply at tournaments that people really despise anything that makes you take more of it. I think that is one of the things people dislike about psychic deathstars so much - just the time it takes to run them due to no limit on target selection, pregame rolls, etc.

Ynnari are going to be the next "no friends" army, unless they get bad rulings from TOs or GW. People probably aren't going to be super happy about all the extra out of sequence actions everywhere because it's going to force them to consider everything a lot more carefully, on top of just tons more actions per turn, resulting in slower games overall.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:20

The only ones who ever bring them are Guard players. If I have to sit through 30 minutes of wyvern rolling, they can sit through 5 minutes of judges losing their minds.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:27

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The only ones who ever bring them are Guard players. If I have to sit through 30 minutes of wyvern rolling, they can sit through 5 minutes of judges losing their minds.

Fair enough.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:54

I see them quite a lot with Tau - more than AM certainly! I can only say what would happen locally and how I would rule them at my events - YMMV

1: Can units be locked in combat with the cargo crate? No

2: Can you move enemy units onto the cargo crate? Yes

3: Can you fire a blast weapon that hits models on your own cargo crate? No

4: Does destroying the cargo container proc the Ynnari Soulburst ability? No

5: Can cargo containers be targeted with psychic powers? Yes - under certain conditions

6: Do you automatically hit in close combat against a cargo crate? Yes


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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 05:46

1: Can units be locked in combat with the cargo crate? No

2: Can you move enemy units onto the cargo crate? No, yes once it's destroyed.

3: Can you fire a blast weapon that hits models on your own cargo crate? Not until it's destroyed.

4: Does destroying the cargo container proc the Ynnari Soulburst ability? Yes

5: Can cargo containers be targeted with psychic powers? Yes - under certain conditions

6: Do you automatically hit in close combat against a cargo crate? Yes
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 14:05

I've seen #2 ruled 'yes.'
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 15:18

It's terrain - it should be yes.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Sun Feb 26 2017, 17:21

I think I agree with @amorrowlyday's version of answers except for number 2. Like a fortification with battlements(that is also both terrain AND owned by your opponent), you can still move onto it.
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 02:10

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I think I agree with @amorrowlyday's version of answers except for number 2. Like a fortification with battlements(that is also both terrain AND owned by your opponent), you can still move onto it.

which is my version!

We just disagree on the soulburst - and it comes down to if you count fortifications as models in your army for the purposes of first blood/KP etc

If you do then the answer is yes

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 02:20

Yep, and that's precisely our disagreement.

I think My disagreement with Betray is more interesting tho, and I want to hear where you stand on that Massaen because you gave a specific and matter of fact answer to 2. In all the other places where I was merely broader than you, our footing, the ruling that we were drawing out of was identical.

Why do you stand were you do on 2?

As for Betray: What do you believe grants a piece of battlefield debris the special rules for battlements, which are specific to battlements, which in the BRB are only granted to the top floor of terrain of the type building not battlefield debris?
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 07:28

@amorrowlyday wrote:

As for Betray: What do you believe grants a piece of battlefield debris the special rules for battlements, which are specific to battlements, which in the BRB are only granted to the top floor of terrain of the type building not battlefield debris?

You're allowed to be on battlefield debris, too. I've seen models haphazardly leaning on top of aegis defense lines, barricades, etc.

It's terrain, and nothing has identified it as impassable. I believe in the movement rules somewhere it may even say that "you can move your model anywhere you can place it within it's movement range, so long as it isn't within 1" of an enemy unit or on impassable terrain."

Actually....now that I wrote out what that movement rule says(or what I recall it saying), it's possible that you're right due to the enemy clause. We'd need to look at whether it says enemy model or unit, and whether or not the terrain counts as an "enemy unit" or not, as well as whether or not we're given permission to move on terrain that is taken as an enemy fortification, other than battlements.

This likely would take more research to get a clear answer on. Someone should do that. My research time is pretty limited at the moment. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 21:01

This is a screwy one that I quit playing because of the arguments I got into with it. It needs a ruling. More interesting to me is whether a unit can be "in" it. Also the ADL states if you are BTB with it and the enemy is BTB you are considered engaged. Is the same true with crates? No clear answers are to be found despite everyone seeming to know exactly how it should read. I'll try to scan the rules and post when I get home.
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 22:26

I don't remind where, but I think I read something like a fortification is owned by defaut by the one how has it in it's list, count as a scoring unit, but the ownership change if a model is on/in it.
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 22:28

Those are the rules for buildings which are a subset of fortifications that this particular example is not a part of.
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Mon Feb 27 2017, 22:38

Aahh.... I was not that far.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Tue Feb 28 2017, 03:33

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Those are the rules for buildings which are a subset of fortifications that this particular example is not a part of.

Oh, well in this case, if it is not considered "owned" by the player by default after deployment, I'd go back to my original assertion that enemies could walk on it. Being in your list doesn't make it yours. I thought it was a building of some sort. I didn't realize it was classed the same as things like an ADL.
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Tue Feb 28 2017, 03:54

That is a VERY fair point.
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Fri Apr 07 2017, 19:12

My opinion. Not an expert but here it is.

You aren't allowed to get within an inch of an enemy unit because they aren't going to just stand there and let you occupy the same space. The will shift around within their area of control (Models are static, the soldiers they represent somewhat less so). A building or cargo container cannot prevent itself from being "boarded" Not sure about the wording of the rules, but I think the spirit of the rules would allow models from both sides to be on the cargo box.
Since it isn't a living thing I would allow you to put a blast marker onto a box you fielded. Again, the no targeting friendlies rule is there because in most armies you just don't shoot your friends. You wouldn't have the same hesitation against shooting at a metal box. (unless there is a scenario specific reason)
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Fri Apr 07 2017, 19:19

Why did you necro this conversation to say this?
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PostSubject: Re: The unholy abomination that is the Munitorum Armored Container   Fri Apr 07 2017, 20:25

Back to the grave, unholy abomination!
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