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 How to fix the Voidraven discussion

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sat Feb 25 2017, 16:23

Ever since I became an Archon 3 years ago I've loved the look of the Voidraven Bomber. It is our centerpiece model but currently is a little lackluster. In this discussion I would like other's ideas for how they think this incredible model should be portrayed on the tabletop. I don't want to hear "just use something else". That is not what this discussion is about. Consider this wish listing.

Currently the bomber sits in our heavy support options, but nothing really feels too heavy about it. I would start off with an Armor increase to 11 so bolter fire cannot hurt it. Or maybe even make it 12 so tau fire warriors cannot hurt it either. 11 would probably suffice. Would increasing the hull points to 4-5 be unrealistic?

I think that we should be able to purchase multiple bombs. 1 comes stock, additional bombs can be purchased for 15-20 points. You could remove missiles so it doesn't feel like an expensive razorwing. Or have cheaper missiles that come stock. The bomb should be a D weapon. You could even have multiple bomb types. Cluster bombs: D6 small blast templates, S6 AP 3. These would be set up the same way deep striking units are. Place in a circular pattern all touching the center blast marker.

Void lances are powerful, but maybe make it a Heavy 3 twinlinked gun. Dark scythes are fine as they are IMO.

That said, I would keep the point cost the same. It is now more survivable, and seems like a much better option to take.

Let's hear your thoughts on how to make our centerpiece a centerpiece to be feared.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sat Feb 25 2017, 19:22

I disagree. the Voidraven is fine in all but 1 respect: It lacks vector dancer. This error is an oversight that is corrected in dfts by giving us access to the eldar Fighter Ace table however they botched the fix by being unaware of the role both Phil Kelly(5th) and the 7th edition team had intended for it and made it a bomber per it's namesake. It is intended to be used a flying fortress and project air superiority.

It is a bomber that shoots down fighters. And frankly it's the third best unit in the game at that by traditional metrics. It's the reserve you don't want coming in until turn 3.

If you think dark scythes are fine then you don't actually think there is anything wrong with the voidraven. The Voidraven is supposed to be our Anti-Flyer vehicle with voidlances were 1 hullpoint will kill it through crash and burn. Unfortunately due to the proliferation of SHW's and GMC's We don't see the proliferation of truly fearsome flyers except for the helldrake and crimson hunters.

We don't have a "counter this or I win the game" button in our center piece because were intended from the ground up to be played MSU. For that Reason we have utility centerpiece rather than a tank or DPS one.

For redundancy if I had 160pts I'd definitely throw a voidraven into a list, I simply rarely have 160pts.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sat Feb 25 2017, 22:18

I think of the void raven as a stealth bomber, high above the battle. maybe give it stealth, shrouded, more bombs, and weaker guns. anti-flyer missiles even. keep the points cost.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sat Feb 25 2017, 22:29

Both our flyers really should have the shrouded special rule, as it perfectly fits their fluff, and the Void Mine ought to be our access to D weapons.

Without that, it could use a points reduction.

I have only brought it once to show it off after I finished painting it. Now, whenever I build a list, I find it difficult to justify bringing it over a Ravager that could have been using its three lances for an additional turn. The way I play at the moment, my first focus in every game is taking out enemy transports so that the insides can be digested by splinter fire. The Razorwing is much more appropriate in that sense with its timing. Bringing it as anti-air feels counter-intuitive due to the points that go into the void mine.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 01:31

2 options either would be good

1) Make it cheaper and start it with sometype of missiles
2) Make its weapons Str D

FOr the same points (If you added missiles) you can just have a storm raven, and I would take a Storm Raven in my DE army over Void Bomber even if its not fluffy (And I like fluffy) its that bad.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 01:58

Make them 40 points cheaper base or give them Shatterfield missiles for free. Problem solved.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:35

I'd like to see it have vector dancer as well. All eldar flyers should imo.

I think if the void mine were allowed to be dropped one per turn so long as you don't move flat out would go a long ways. And having other types of bombs could be cool too. I love the idea of a cluster bomb. We really don't need more anti infantry but a 3 small blast where the first scatters and the 2nd and third touch the first in the same line as you moved in...

Add to that stealth and I think we would have a winner
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 05:58

Faitherun wrote:
And having other types of bombs could be cool too. I love the idea of a cluster bomb. We really don't need more anti infantry but a 3 small blast where the first scatters and the 2nd and third touch the first in the same line as you moved in...

ooohhh... carpet bombing... that would be cool!
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 06:24

as with most of our units, id like to see matching fluff with rules. hes supposed to be almost invisible on the field and the bombs should pack a LOT of punch. so stealth/shrouded and D bombs or ignores cover cluster bombs like the IG wyverns
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 08:16

Ignore cover cluster bombs fit perfectly. Would you rather a straight line of small blasts in the direction you fly? Or a D6+1 deep strike pattern? Both sound good to me, but definitely include ignore cover.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 10:21

how about a weapon that makes one large blast with high strenght, then you can place 4 small blast markers anywhere touching the first marker, like barrage. with ignores cover shred
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 16:09

Well we can give the Voidraven stealth by adding night shields but buying it for 15 points isn't worth it, I agree that it should already have stealth like most of our vehicles should, I also agree the Voidraven shoulda been our access to D weapons, if it had strength D weapons I wouldn't mind paying the 160 or even up to 200 points for it, but if it's gonna go up in points I would like it to possibly have another two wing mounted D weapons so four in total and still have access to bombs and missiles or really go nuts and make it our Lord of war slot for 270 points ... It comes stock with 4 strength D heavy weapons (Void cannons), choice of 4 bombs (cluster [place a large blast marker and scatter the add D6 small blasts anywhere around the large blast, center explosion is strength 6 AP 3 the small blasts are strength 4 AP 5], void, heavy poison [ fleshbane, AP 3, and have the lethal dose special rule], and Shattermine cluster [drop D6 mines along the flight path that each scatter, and leave a mine behind, when an enemy unit moves withing 3 inches of a mine center a large blast over the nearest model, the blast is strength 7 AP - shred, if it lands on a unit the effect happens immediately) you choose one of these bomb types at the beginning of the game and at the beginning of your shooting phase (when the Voidraven is on the board) Roll a D3 and you can deploy that many bombs of the type chosen this turn or shoot it's arsenal of Void cannons, and it comes stock with stealth and shrouded AV 11 all around and vector dancer ... Though I mighta just made the Void Raven a bit to powerful here, if it needs to be reduced to one bomb a turn and two void cannons that would be fine
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 18:13

Stealth and Shrouded isn't enough.

As I understand it, the Tau's Ignores Cover shenanigans are supposed to represent their targeting systems, which is exactly what the Eldar's more advanced technology is supposed to "render useless." I don't think the Voidraven's stealth tech can be appropriately represented using existing rules.

You could give it a rule that says "ignores cover" doesn't apply to it. Or you could say it simply can't be targeted by shooting attacks more than 18" away, regardless of weapon range.

If I was sufficiently motivated (I'm not), I'd go through all the books looking for any rule effect caused by a targeting device, and then decide how it's effected by the Voidraven's "stealth warfare suite of such potency that the craft might as well be obscured by dark sorcery."

(Seriously, how is it that the description of the Voidraven is all about its amazing stealth tech, which isn't represented in the game at all?)

I think there's two things making this difficult. First is the game's reliance on universal special rules, which I think is a poor design choice. The use of cover saves, for example, to represent all sorts of things that aren't cover saves creates problematic interactions. The other thing is the inconsistent granularity. If the Tau were abstracted as much as the Dark Eldar are, they'd lose most of their special rules.

My biases are showing here - I started playing 40k in Rogue Trader, and I want games to be better instead of bigger. I know other people feel differently, and that's fine, because we're allowed to like different things.

So here's what I'd really like for the Voidraven. First, I'd like to hit modifiers back, like we had in Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. There should be penalties for shooting at things that are tiny, or really far away, or moving really fast. Then, I'd like a rule category for sensors/targetors/autosenses/whatever. For units with sensor packages in their helmets, they could just ignore some of the to hit modifiers, while things like Tau battlesuits could have additional effects (like they do now). Once you've done that, fast moving armies like ours that are supposed to be hard to hit would actually be hard to hit, and you can just give the Voidraven a rule that says targeting systems don't work on it.

There's a story in our current codex - The Raid on Bolgrog's World - which describes Dark Eldar attacking Orks in the midst of a toxic storm. "The winds and toxic clouds were no impediment to the Dark Eldar, whose elaborate rebreathers and gyrostabalised armour compensated for the effects of both. Not so the Orks, who were forced to lean into the gale, squinting through blast-goggles and fizzling fog-scopes as they sought their attackers."

I want our targeting systems and gyrostablized armor and stealth tech to be represented in game. I want to be able to play games that feel like they have some relationship with the stories and lore in the books. Instead, we just get Night Vision, but for some reason we aren't allowed to actually attack at night, despite our codex containing story after story about the Dark Eldar attacking at night.

I swear, it's like our lore is just there to taunt us.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 18:17

The mine should be a D+1 large Blast weapon and maybe give them D-1 missiles for extra points.
That way it would be our method to wipe out big scary death stars.
We are a spoiler army and this would emphasise that.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 18:28

Armour 11, 11, 10

Dark Scythes become Heavy 2 and lose Blast, come stock on the Voidraven.

Void Mine Strength D and Ignores Cover, Void Lances Strength D and a 60pt upgrade over Scythes.

Shrouded.

Stealth Bomber: Immune to the the Interceptor USR.

Shatterfield Missiles come stock, any number can be swapped for Implosion Missiles at no cost.

Rearm: When in Ongoing Reserve roll a dice, on a 4+ regain all used Missiles. Not sure whether I should extend this to the Void Mine, a Strength D, Ignores Cover Bomb you can reuse might be a bit much.

I'd certainly take all that for it's current cost of 160.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 20:00

Imateria wrote:

Rearm: When in Ongoing Reserve roll a dice, on a 4+ regain all used Missiles. Not sure whether I should extend this to the Void Mine, a Strength D, Ignores Cover Bomb you can reuse might be a bit much.

what about 5 D flamers for 160pts?
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Sun Feb 26 2017, 20:49

TeenageAngst wrote:
Make them 40 points cheaper base or give them Shatterfield missiles for free. Problem solved.

This.

The discussion depraves in usual wishlisting and cray ideas that will just bloat the rules and don't tackle the root of the problems. The Voidraven BOMBER is a BOMBER, which severely lacks any bombs to speak of.

Perhaps if the Void Mine had D+1 damage it could justify it's cost too.

Stealth, Shrouded and AV11 is all nice and fluffy but doesn't help the model the slightest in actually getting the job done. The job is BOMBING.


Another idea: Go all in, make the Voidraven cost like 260pts and make it our Superheavy flier. AV11, Shrouded, Invul Saves, D+1 Void Mine, free Shatterfield Missiles with AP3 and re-rolls.

Of course all our missiles need a rework as well, but that is a discussion for another time.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Mon Feb 27 2017, 07:44

My wishlist for the Voidraven:

Pros:
18" Veil of Tears-style effect (due to that amazing "stealth warfare suite of such potency") [credit goes to @Calyptra I love you]
May take bombs which fulfill all the roles of missiles (poison, generic, anti-elite, etc.) (or maybe covers different roles from missiles? I like the cluster bomb idea for taking out mass light infantry)
Add option for anti-vehicle bomb that doesn't have the Lance rule
Void Mines are Strength D AP 2
Up to 4 bombs/mines may be taken in any combination
Vector Dancer

Cons:
still AV 10 all around and 3 HP
no missiles options
comes without bombs of any kind (i.e. any and all bombs are bought as upgrades)
keep current points cost (to compensate for upgrades of Veil of Tears and Vector Dancer special rules)

(arguably) neutral:
Keep Void Lances
Change Dark Scythes to be something good for taking out light vehicles like other fliers.  Something like 4 Strength 7 AP 2 shots no Lance rule that 'scythe' down enemy fliers and vehicles would be nice, and they would still be much better for taking out really tough infantry than Void Lances

I love wishlisting cheers

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Mon Feb 27 2017, 08:46

Imateria wrote:
Armour 11, 11, 10

Dark Scythes become Heavy 2 and lose Blast, come stock on the Voidraven.

Void Mine Strength D and Ignores Cover, Void Lances Strength D and a 60pt upgrade over Scythes.

Shrouded.

Stealth Bomber: Immune to the the Interceptor USR.

Shatterfield Missiles come stock, any number can be swapped for Implosion Missiles at no cost.

Rearm: When in Ongoing Reserve roll a dice, on a 4+ regain all used Missiles. Not sure whether I should extend this to the Void Mine, a Strength D, Ignores Cover Bomb you can reuse might be a bit much.

I'd certainly take all that for it's current cost of 160.

Im fine with the Av changes, but I'd rather it keep the Small Blasts, I would MUCH rather have the basic missiles for the Razor wing b.c S8/AP3 with potions for other missiles still.

The Bomber SHOULD be the blast's flier and Razor wing should be 2 Shots + Missiles that are NOT blasts.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Mon Feb 27 2017, 12:54

bomb str 10 ap1 or D.

Built in stealth and/immune to interceptor.

Av 11 in the front and sides.

all for 160.

obv. missiles should be reduced in cost.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Mon Feb 27 2017, 14:24

wormfromhell wrote:
Imateria wrote:

Rearm: When in Ongoing Reserve roll a dice, on a 4+ regain all used Missiles. Not sure whether I should extend this to the Void Mine, a Strength D, Ignores Cover Bomb you can reuse might be a bit much.

what about 5 D flamers for 160pts?
If you're running D-scythes for 160pts then you're cheating as they're 210. They're also extremely short range and very easy to take out, people that tend to complain about Wraithguard tend to have no idea how hard it is to get the best out of them.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Mon Feb 27 2017, 14:30

amishprn86 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Armour 11, 11, 10

Dark Scythes become Heavy 2 and lose Blast, come stock on the Voidraven.

Void Mine Strength D and Ignores Cover, Void Lances Strength D and a 60pt upgrade over Scythes.

Shrouded.

Stealth Bomber: Immune to the the Interceptor USR.

Shatterfield Missiles come stock, any number can be swapped for Implosion Missiles at no cost.

Rearm: When in Ongoing Reserve roll a dice, on a 4+ regain all used Missiles. Not sure whether I should extend this to the Void Mine, a Strength D, Ignores Cover Bomb you can reuse might be a bit much.

I'd certainly take all that for it's current cost of 160.

Im fine with the Av changes, but I'd rather it keep the Small Blasts, I would MUCH rather have the basic missiles for the Razor wing b.c S8/AP3 with potions for other missiles still.

The Bomber SHOULD be the blast's flier and Razor wing should be 2 Shots + Missiles that are NOT blasts.
I despise single shot, small blasts as a complete waste of time so no, I'd much rather have them as just Heavy 2. Implosion Missiles get away with it as you tend to fire off all 4 at once, mitigating the terrible accuracy of small blasts somewhat.

I agree that either the Monoscythe or Shatterfield missiles should be changed to S8 and single shot instead of Blast so that they can actually be useful against other flyers.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Mon Feb 27 2017, 15:30

Imateria wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Armour 11, 11, 10

Dark Scythes become Heavy 2 and lose Blast, come stock on the Voidraven.

Void Mine Strength D and Ignores Cover, Void Lances Strength D and a 60pt upgrade over Scythes.

Shrouded.

Stealth Bomber: Immune to the the Interceptor USR.

Shatterfield Missiles come stock, any number can be swapped for Implosion Missiles at no cost.

Rearm: When in Ongoing Reserve roll a dice, on a 4+ regain all used Missiles. Not sure whether I should extend this to the Void Mine, a Strength D, Ignores Cover Bomb you can reuse might be a bit much.

I'd certainly take all that for it's current cost of 160.


Im fine with the Av changes, but I'd rather it keep the Small Blasts, I would MUCH rather have the basic missiles for the Razor wing b.c S8/AP3 with potions for other missiles still.

The Bomber SHOULD be the blast's flier and Razor wing should be 2 Shots + Missiles that are NOT blasts.
I despise single shot, small blasts as a complete waste of time so no, I'd much rather have them as just Heavy 2. Implosion Missiles get away with it as you tend to fire off all 4 at once, mitigating the terrible accuracy of small blasts somewhat.

I agree that either the Monoscythe or Shatterfield missiles should be changed to S8 and single shot instead of Blast so that they can actually be useful against other flyers.


And i'm the opposite, blasts even small are fine, better than signal shot (that are not small blasts) with higher potential than 2 shots vs non-fliers.

Making the Bomber 2 Shots makes it AA and the bomber should never be AA, it should be AI/Anti Ground Tank, Blasts fills those rolls better than 2 shots.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Tue Feb 28 2017, 06:49

I would love the Voidraven to be a bit more awesome as I love the model, and try to sneak it into lists where I can.

There are three offensive aspects to the Voidraven:
1) The Void Mine - potentially devastating to high value infantry, but single shot, likely to miss, and without any ability to ignore cover too easily mitigated. It's neat, but too unreliable.
2) Void Lances - decent and our best tool against other Flyers (without Allies), but not points efficient compared to the likes of Scourges and even Ravagers against anything other than Flyers.
3) Missiles - so heavily overpriced they aren't worth taking.

Dropping the Void Mine often puts you in a position where you can't get a shot away the next turn and have to leave the table.

It is also fragile, but that feels authentically Dark Eldar to me. Perhaps some kind of resilience improvement would be worthwhile.

My ideas to make the Voidraven interesting enough to take more often:

1) Void Mine Str D and two uses
2) Either Vector Dancer or a greater than 90 degree turn
3) Void Lances become Blasts and possibly Str D
4) Missiles reduced in cost to be worth considering
5) Possibly an invul or cover save against ground units

Voidraven is now purely a ground target weapon. It can't so easily be ignored after it misses the bomb and isn't forced off the table so easily. Not sure what the appropriate points cost for that would be - I would imagine it is a little higher than the current 160.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix the Voidraven discussion   Tue Feb 28 2017, 22:04

The void lances seem really strong and the bomb seems decent but, I've never even run one since loaded out with missiles it's over 200 points yet it's AV 10 all around with no other protection.

My local meta includes Tau, Nids, and most devastating AD mech warconvo with skyfire dune crawler. I'm not planning on running one ever. Those void lances do seem really solid. Can we get those one something else? Also, making the bomb D or getting more than one would be tempting.
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