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 How to counter the psychic phase?

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 05:18

Pick a unit that you could attach independent characters to that utilizes long range shooting, needs a -2 leadership bubble, or has a weakness to being stuck in combat. HI BILLY MAYS HERE FOR A FANTASTIC NEW PRODUCT! It's called the Shadowseer and it's going to solve all your problems. I can stuff 10 Windriders in with a single 60 point Shadowseer and they will be untouchable at their 36" range. 12 Reavers with Caltrops get babysat up to their intended prey, no longer needing to worry about Wyverns or SMS or marker lights. Vaul's Wrath, stick one in there and not only will it protect it from getting shot but it will also protect it from being assaulted by giving the entire unit hit & run. Running a Grotesquerie? Give them a couple Shadowseers. Running a Seerstar? Just one will stop those pesky Warp Hunters. Want to power up a leadership bomb? Shadowseer.

And oh, oh ho ho ho, this is without even allying in Corsairs Twisted Evil

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 05:54

Hit and run does not protect them from assault - they are still guardians and they WILL die and you WILL lose combat to just about everything!

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 17:01

Hit and run doesn't, but hit and run with 5 attacks being slung from an I7 character with a high WS, concussion, fear, and fleshbane will.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 18:38

I wasn't asking for an imprecise advertisement. I was more looking for a precise example of what you would do, in an actual 1850 list with 6 shadowseers.

Like I said before I asked, I understand the various things you can use a shadowseer for. I'm asking what a list would look like in which you're using SIX, since that was what you suggested was going to shift the meta in such a big way.

I think having easy access to a shadowseer without all the baggage that comes along with harlie formations changes the meta in a big way, but I don't necessarily think that we're going to see people spamming 6 of them that often. We could have spammed 20 spiritseers in 2 CADs before, and we never saw that.

But maybe I misunderstood you, and you weren't suggesting people would take 6?

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 19:11

"Up to 6" generally means between 0 and 6 so no I wasn't advocating shoving all 6 in there unless you had a very specific reason to do so. Reading comprehension, kids. The big shift will not come from having 6 of them. It will come from having a few of them, probably between 1-4, in very specific units that would otherwise be vulnerable. I would not be surprised to see more unit diversity because of this. Wraithblades are viable now, as are footslogging wraithguard. We can have totes ridonk synergy with a Spiritseer, wraiths, a shadowseer, and this soulburst stuff.

And lest we forget this gives us carte blanche to run a Solitaire.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 19:13

@TeenageAngst wrote:
And lest we forget this gives us carte blanche to run a Solitaire.

I've thrown my solitaire in with my ynnari for a game or two and it just wrecked face. even when it wasn't just annihilating in melee, it was distracting tons and tons of fire away from my troupe that could get done what it needed to.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 19:19

I think claiming that "up to 6 in a standard 1850 list" should be read as generally 0 to 4 is pretty disingenuous, and is not cause to attack someone ELSE's ability to comprehend ideas, particularly when you COULD take far more than 6 in a standard 1850 tournament list. So I thought maybe you had some particular way in mind that gave the number "6" significance, other than just 6 elite slots in 2 reborn warhosts.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 19:28

The Solitaire rarely doesn't earn it's points I have to say. It's so darned nice.

Betray, the fact you alluded to me *not* meaning "bring exactly six shadowseers" in your previous post means you knew exactly what I meant and we're just looking for a chance to swing at my opinion again. I ain't some chump lol


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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 20:19

@BetrayTheWorld, having avoided the psychic phase altogether until today and considering shifting to a psyker heavy-ish list I'd like to see your flowchart for rolling powers. Is it available somewhere or is a timeless secret like the coca cola formula?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 20:26

That right there is how they intend to win adepticon apparently so I doubt it.
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LidlessEye
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 20:59

Such hot tempers in this thread!

The answer to my original question seems to be best answered by running an Ynnari list. With due respect to the proponents of the MSU theory, I think that a psyker-heavy list can still make the phase a stark advantage, no matter the VPC (venoms per capita).
More specifically, the answer to countering the psychic phase is "take some psykers," and based on this thread there seem to be some pretty elegant choices for that in the Ynnari list. As someone who's only been running his shadowseer as part of The Hero's Path, the idea of putting them in a unit of, say, incubi to help them schlep up the field is very appealing.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 22:05

@amorrowlyday wrote:
That right there is how they intend to win adepticon apparently so I doubt it.

So nice to be understood. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 03:50

Quote :
As someone who's only been running his shadowseer as part of The Hero's Path, the idea of putting them in a unit of, say, incubi to help them schlep up the field is very appealing.

Keep in mind the Shadowseer is a double-edged sword. If you know how to swing it, it works fantastically though. Shadowseers for example can be used as a funnel. If you have two units of Incubi with Veil of Tears up on foot and a unit of warriors behind them, your opponent will be inclined not to shoot the Incubi in spite of them being the greater threat for fear of losing their shots. They will instead shoot the warriors, which are highly likely to die, which will give you a soulburst to both Incubi units assuming you're running the Ynnari detachment. By positioning yourself on the board in relation to enemy units and using Shadowseers to strategically force your opponent to concentrate fire where they don't want to you can make chains of soulbursts happen on their turn. And for reference, this is an example of where 6 60 point Shadowseers would be viable.

Ynnari are overpowered just on their own, but if you are a 4th dimensional chess wizard, you're going to turn this game on its freaking head. The more you pay attention to positioning and dictating what can and cannot be shot at or locked in combat, the more you begin to turn the game against your opponent. You remove their ability to make key decisions and increase the chances of them making bad ones. And the best part is, by the time they realize they're done for it's too late.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 04:39

That's actually a really smart way to get some synergy out of the Ynnari rules and the Ynnari units. Smart matchup. Thanks for sharing!

What do you think are the best units to use it with? Incubi? Or maybe Banshees or Wraithblades?
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 05:36

@Jimsolo wrote:
What do you think are the best units to use it with? Incubi? Or maybe Banshees or Wraithblades?

Honestly, I don't know. I don't even think netlisting is going to be viable for this army since so much of it hinges not only on your own skills but those of your opponent. What works for someone might not work for someone else, or against someone else. Warp Spiders and Scatbikes and Wraithknights will still be staples, no doubt about that, but I wouldn't be surprised to see heavy inclusion of other units depending on composition and the overall player strategy. Tonight I turn 2 tabled a Skitarii player with my CWE list run as Ynnari. I ended up having a Wraithknight and 6 units of Warp Spiders double-shooting because of how I chained the Soulbursts. But even as overwhelmingly powerful as it was, I saw so many opportunities for more if only I had this unit or that unit.

Forget Necron Pylonstars. Forget Riptide Wings. Forget Wulfen. Forget the Tripartite Lance. What I saw tonight redefined what I consider to be power gaming. Remember pre- and post-Necron codexes? We're looking at pre- and post-Fracture codexes now.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 06:28

I don't see why people keep advocating for the solitaire... he is utter garbage in my experience. 50 points to expensive and WAY to squishy

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 06:33

I have never lost a solitaire that I didn't recognize as a massive misplay phases before my opponent did. I also almost always take them in the Hero's path tho so stealth+shrouded ftw.

They are also dirt cheap compared to the thing you throw them at. They aren't for killing squads. They are for killing GMC's and SHwalkers.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 06:46

@Massaen wrote:
I don't see why people keep advocating for the solitaire... he is utter garbage in my experience. 50 points to expensive and WAY to squishy

We might just have had some vastly different experiences, Massaen. I've had nothing but good things come from mine. Last time I fielded one he killed two Riptides. Against big nasties, he's a beast.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 08:16

@Jimsolo wrote:
That's actually a really smart way to get some synergy out of the Ynnari rules and the Ynnari units.  Smart matchup.  Thanks for sharing!

Yeah, nice one TA.

@Jimsolo wrote:
What do you think are the best units to use it with? Incubi? Or maybe Banshees or Wraithblades?

I will be trying Sslyth.

Not the best choice i know but i avoid CE units and i can see potential.
Also I want giant multi-armed space snakemen with guns in my life. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 09:59

@Jimsolo wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
I don't see why people keep advocating for the solitaire... he is utter garbage in my experience. 50 points to expensive and WAY to squishy

We might just have had some vastly different experiences, Massaen.  I've had nothing but good things come from mine.  Last time I fielded one he killed two Riptides. Against big nasties, he's a beast.

Mine dies so very often. He is squishier than 3 space marines!

I get 1 game in 5 where I like him and he excels but more often than not, he just dies. The few times he has excelled are with lucky 6's on the kiss of death.

He is just so inconsistent!

Even in the revenge formation mine dies quickly. That said, I guess I am now resigned to him doing it so its no real surprise!

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Thu Mar 02 2017, 13:17

I agree the Solitaire can be pretty inconsistent. I have not been using him against the big fellas though. Something to attempt.
The fact that in an Ynnari list he can now take the Hungering Blade to pick up Fleshbane is probably going to help him tear up units of MEQ, right? I've had pretty good luck pulling off his Blitz movement, and that turn with A 10 is pretty saucy even with his usual kit.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Fri Mar 03 2017, 01:15

If your Solitaire is inconsistent he needs to eat more fiber.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Fri Mar 03 2017, 06:34

@TeenageAngst wrote:
If your Solitaire is inconsistent he needs to eat more fiber.

fiber?

what he needs is protein! protein!protein!protein!PROTEIN!
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Fri Mar 03 2017, 08:07

hahahaha.

Seriously though - I just think there are many better things to spend the points on then the solitare

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Fri Mar 03 2017, 09:43

My solitaire always does work :/ Its a 150pt Cannon that wreaks w.e you throw at it.

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