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 How to counter the psychic phase?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:07

Because once I've spent 500pts of my list into that phase you can no longer beat me?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:11

What he said. ^

I've nearly tabled a DE player by turn 2 with basically 1 psyker deathstar killing almost his entire 1850 army. (NOVAs are a PITA for DE).

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:18

Tabling a Dark Eldar player by turn 2 isn't exactly something to brag about tbh. Tabling someone by turn 2 AS Dark Eldar on the other hand...

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:43

You can spend that 500 points on psykers, but that's 500 points of other units I can invest on things like grabbing objectives, air superiority, and more. I'd rather have taloses and a voidraven than that much psychic. And again, in my local scene, I'm not seeing much more than 100-150 points in psykers which is not enough to really be a credible threat. Heck, I'd spend that 500 points on a tantalus with a WWP archon and some splinter shots inside, I think that is more useful than the psykers.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:45

@Srota wrote:
 Heck, I'd spend that 500 points on a tantalus with a WWP archon and some splinter shots inside, I think that is more useful than the psykers.

But it dies to 1 volley of singing spears from the psykers.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:50

Yep and I likely killed a second unit with psychic shriek and will kill your sslyth bomb when my fortune star charges them after they get out. That's why I said: you can no longer win.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:51

Depends on how you use it, where you place it and more. Tactics are a fluid medium, you cannot say what is the perfect tool for the job, but I can tell you that my Tantalus handles quite a few different roles, and your psyker may not, depending on the powers. Additionally, I know what my tantalus can and cannot do before I even reach the table, none of its abilities are dependent on a table which involves dice rolling, your psykers' powers are not. 500 points of uncertainty vs 500 points of certainty? I'll choose the latter every time.

I prefer to use specific tools which I know what they can do in my lists as opposed to using something which can force me to rely on more dice rolling. Perhaps its all the blood bowl I play, but the more dice you rely on, the less likely things are to do what you want, and I seek to avoid that.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:52

Even talking about uncertainty demonstrates the degree to which you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not saying you don't play the game, I'm saying you have little credible experience with the psychic phase and it shows.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 04:56

Except that it does, as dice represent randomization. What happens when you roll below a 10 on those 3d6? One must take into account that their attempts will fail. If you plan for everything to go perfectly your way, what do you do when it doesn't? If you take the chance to roll the dice, you should be thinking about what happens if you fail, as it is a possibility. This is wargaming, you can't have everything go perfectly your way.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:02

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Even talking about uncertainty demonstrates the degree to which you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not saying you don't play the game, I'm saying you have little credible experience with the psychic phase and it shows.

I'm gonna have to agree with amorrowlyday here, and this is coming from a guy who plays a Tantalus too. Psychic phase is nothing to sneeze at both offensively and defensively. Witchfires and novas can wreck your army and defensive buffs keep things from dying as fast as you need them to to get an edge, and let's not even get into summoning. There are ways to counter people who use it but they mostly involve 4th dimensional wizard chess and can't be explained in mere list-building or tactics talk.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:03

ROFL. You don't get it at all. I'm not going to be rolling at 10. I'm going to be rolling against 6 or 7 That you couldn't even presume that and your going to tell ME that I'm not taking contingencies into account is laughable.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:16

@amorrowlyday wrote:
ROFL. You don't get it at all. I'm not going to be rolling at 10. I'm going to be rolling against 6 or 7 That you couldn't even presume that and your going to tell ME that I'm not taking contingencies into account is laughable.

I cannot presume to know what goes on in your head, but the only way to truly guarantee that you get the power off is to target LD2. As for why I selected LD10? I don't know what else is in your hypothetical perfect list that never ever loses or rolls poorly. How would I know what you are running in this list? Is it marines? Is it Nids? What about Guard? If its marines, which chapter? Is it Dark Angels? Is it Blood Angels? What are the circumstances? You said "Oh psychic shriek i win." That means nothing. What is the context?

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@amorrowlyday wrote:
Even talking about uncertainty demonstrates the degree to which you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not saying you don't play the game, I'm saying you have little credible experience with the psychic phase and it shows.


I'm gonna have to agree with amorrowlyday here, and this is coming from a guy who plays a Tantalus too. Psychic phase is nothing to sneeze at both offensively and defensively. Witchfires and novas can wreck your army and defensive buffs keep things from dying as fast as you need them to to get an edge, and let's not even get into summoning. There are ways to counter people who use it but they mostly involve 4th dimensional wizard chess and can't be explained in mere list-building or tactics talk.

I agree its not a joke at those levels, but it is something I find to be too uncertain to think of using on my own, and prefer to focus my attentions on other things and if countering is so difficult, I find it to be more useful to focus my points on shoring up other holes in my list. That tantalus can do a lot of good for me in other aspects of the game which I can rely on more effectively than trying to achieve a difficult counter to psychic phases. That is my point. And again, my local games tend to have no real psychic at all. So perhaps that has distorted the lens through which I see the game, but I don't have the money to go to the big GTs and the suburbs of Philadelphia are not really rife with tournaments. Not since Killadelphia died.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:20

Given the fact that we already talked about how it's seer council based I find this assertion on your part petty and wrongheaded or disingenuous take your pick. You have all the context you need: It's seer council based and costs ~500pts.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:26

Quote :
I agree its not a joke at those levels, but it is something I find to be too uncertain to think of using on my own, and prefer to focus my attentions on other things and if countering is so difficult, I find it to be more useful to focus my points on shoring up other holes in my list. That tantalus can do a lot of good for me in other aspects of the game which I can rely on more effectively than trying to achieve a difficult counter to psychic phases. That is my point. And again, my local games tend to have no real psychic at all. So perhaps that has distorted the lens through which I see the game, but I don't have the money to go to the big GTs and the suburbs of Philadelphia are not really rife with tournaments. Not since Killadelphia died.

If you don't see it then don't plan for it. I don't stack my lists with anti-air because I know I'm pretty much the only one in my entire area who runs more than one flyer. It wouldn't make sense for me to roll up every week with skyfire. That being said, if you *do* start to encounter it and don't wanna worry about having to use psykers yourself, the best way to deal with it is to put a Culexus or some Sisters of Silence inside a bunker with an escape hatch. It's not a 100% guarantee but you're no longer bringing a knife to a gun fight that way.

edit: I've done some gaming in Philly myself. Did you go to Winter Blast? Any plans on going to De-La-War?

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:31

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Because once I've spent 500pts of my list into that phase you can no longer beat me?

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Srota wrote:
 Heck, I'd spend that 500 points on a tantalus with a WWP archon and some splinter shots inside, I think that is more useful than the psykers.

But it dies to 1 volley of singing spears from the psykers.

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Yep and I likely killed a second unit with psychic shriek and will kill your sslyth bomb when my fortune star charges them after they get out. That's why I said: you can no longer win.

I fail to see where your assertion of a 500 point seer council comes from in those posts, but I will assume I was just too stupid to see it or something.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
I agree its not a joke at those levels, but it is something I find to be too uncertain to think of using on my own, and prefer to focus my attentions on other things and if countering is so difficult, I find it to be more useful to focus my points on shoring up other holes in my list. That tantalus can do a lot of good for me in other aspects of the game which I can rely on more effectively than trying to achieve a difficult counter to psychic phases. That is my point. And again, my local games tend to have no real psychic at all. So perhaps that has distorted the lens through which I see the game, but I don't have the money to go to the big GTs and the suburbs of Philadelphia are not really rife with tournaments. Not since Killadelphia died.

If you don't see it then don't plan for it. I don't stack my lists with anti-air because I know I'm pretty much the only one in my entire area who runs more than one flyer. It wouldn't make sense for me to roll up every week with skyfire. That being said, if you *do* start to encounter it and don't wanna worry about having to use psykers yourself, the best way to deal with it is to put a Culexus or some Sisters of Silence inside a bunker with an escape hatch. It's not a 100% guarantee but you're no longer bringing a knife to a gun fight that way.

edit: I've done some gaming in Philly myself. Did you go to Winter Blast? Any plans on going to De-La-War?

Yeah, I have looked into those options and have 10 sisters ready to build as well as a Culexus on standby.

As for gaming tournaments, I have looked into De-La-War, its a bit of a hike for me, but I could probably make it, the issue is more one of lack of painting for the models at the moment. My inspiration for painting has been limited as of late. Though I might have a chance at getting 3 colors on my Blood Angels in time.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:36

Really? you don't see that the only unit in the game that fires volleys of singing spears is a warlock conclave? The most effective use of which is in a seer council?
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:37

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Really? you don't see that the only unit in the game that fires volleys of singing spears is a warlock conclave? The most effective use of which is in a seer council?

I don't have perfect recall of a codex I only recently started playing, so no.  But I do appreciate the advice, always glad to learn more.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:46

Nice edit I actually respect you more for that, both the edit and the original comment mind. This observation right here is exactly what I was talking about in the first place. Your anecdotes dripped with ignorance on certain topics and I have a nasty habit of speaking down to people who think they can run before they crawl.

To get back on, though slightly off, track. Do we expect seer council warlocks to run Ynnari spells or still sanctic and do you think that matters?


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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 05:49

I'm not unaware of my own ignorance, and I do try to temper my anger with reason and hindsight, as such I do my best to be diplomatic.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Tue Feb 28 2017, 06:01

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Nice edit I actually respect you more for that, both the edit and the original comment mind. This observation right here is exactly what I was talking about in the first place. Your anecdotes dripped with ignorance on certain topics and I have a nasty habit of speaking down to people who think they can run before they crawl.

To get back on, though slightly off, track. Do we expect seer council warlocks to run Ynnari spells or still sanctic and do you think that matters?

Depends what WL trait I get 1st and who Im fighting.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 02:27

@amorrowlyday wrote:
To get back on, though slightly off, track. Do we expect seer council warlocks to run Ynnari spells or still sanctic and do you think that matters?

This is what makes the psychic phase difficult. It depends.

It depends on what you are playing against. It depends on what your other psykers rolled. Do you need defense or offense?

The revenant discipline doesn't offer much in the way of buffs. So maybe you take it on the warlocks if your farseers rolled up fortune, shrouding, and invisibility.

I'll still be rolling runes of battle on mine for the most part as getting shrouded for free plus whatever minor buffs they pick up.

I really like the Sanctic table that being said but, mostly on a farseer in a seer council as having access to the spirit stone to help cast vortex.


As to playing against psykers without any. I usually hope they roll high on the winds of the warp and pick one power I think is going to be key and try and throw all my dice at the one power. Knowing what powers they have access to and what the powers do helps.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 04:04

I haven't 100% nailed down my ynnari psychic flow chart yet, but taking powers from the new ynnari stuff on a council farseer is a real possibility.

I know that I'll be using the ynnari warlord table almost exclusively, since choosing your psychic powers is just sooooo powerful on farseers, who can choose from so many powers.

Because I run so many psykers for redundancy to ensure that I always get what I want, in the games where I DO roll the warlord trait I want, I'll probably choose that psyker's powers last. That way, I follow my normal flow chart for powers, and just use those last 3 "choice" picks to ensure I get the most optimal powers in combination with what I've already rolled.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 04:14

@lament.config wrote:
@amorrowlyday wrote:
To get back on, though slightly off, track. Do we expect seer council warlocks to run Ynnari spells or still sanctic and do you think that matters?

This is what makes the psychic phase difficult. It depends.

It depends on what you are playing against. It depends on what your other psykers rolled. Do you need defense or offense?

The revenant discipline doesn't offer much in the way of buffs. So maybe you take it on the warlocks if your farseers rolled up fortune, shrouding, and invisibility.

I'll still be rolling runes of battle on mine for the most part as getting shrouded for free plus whatever minor buffs they pick up.

I really like the Sanctic table that being said but, mostly on a farseer in a seer council as having access to the spirit stone to help cast vortex.


As to playing against psykers without any. I usually hope they roll high on the winds of the warp and pick one power I think is going to be key and try and throw all my dice at the one power. Knowing what powers they have access to and what the powers do helps.

Going Revenant on the Warlocks hadn't occurred to me. Interesting idea.
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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 04:31

There's only one Ynnari psyker I care about, and it's the one I've advocated for since I started playing clowns. The ability to bring up to 6 Shadowseers in a standard 1850 tournament list without any tax units is going to be the single greatest game changer in the meta I guarantee it.

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PostSubject: Re: How to counter the psychic phase?   Wed Mar 01 2017, 05:00

What would you do with 6 shadowseers? I recognize things that one could do with them. Just curious as to what you think would be a worthwhile application of them, and why it's better than anything available prior to the ynnari.

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