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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Jink immobilized   Fri Feb 24 2017, 22:18

so i had a lengthy discussion about jinking and immobilized. and before i get another comment about how i should read the rules i did and jink says untill end of the turn.

questions

i jinked a raider got immobilized; then he claimed i no longer got the cover bonus. despite it saying until end of turn. has this ever been faq'd or ?

thanx for an help
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Fri Feb 24 2017, 22:37

It's in the rulebook FAQ

JINK
Q: Do Immobilised Skimmers get Jink?
A: No.

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Fri Feb 24 2017, 22:49

what about the jink that occurred when he damaged it the first time making it immobilized. can i still take the save later in the turn it was immobilized? since jink says its until end of turn?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Fri Feb 24 2017, 23:00

There isn't any such thing as a jink save anymore so RAW I'd agree with you. They may not get Jink any longer but nothing about that answer takes away the cover save jink previously afforded them.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sat Feb 25 2017, 01:38

I agree. They've already been granted the save. Being immobilized doesn't change the fact that they already jinked when they DID have that ability.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sat Feb 25 2017, 02:15

This seems like the contra to the case where a Skimmer isn't 'targeted' so doesn't get to Jink and therefore gain a cover save. In this case, the cover save has been granted, and although the unit can no longer Jink, that should still apply until the end of the turn.

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sat Feb 25 2017, 18:27

i agree with all of the above statements he claimed that since the faq says you cant jink on immobilized the save was lost. i can see his point but to me it doesn't really make sense since all of the shooting attack happen essentially at the same time. idk was wondering if anyone ever encounter a problem like this. and it was very important he killed the raider i used it as a virtual jinking meat shield for my team mates big brawlers. in the end we rolled die to see who was right and the game continued.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sat Feb 25 2017, 21:12

Rules aside, it makes sense that you'd lose the save from a "reality" perspective.

Rules back again, we have to set aside our "reality" perspective when we're resolving rules. Explain that, while we can't roll the dice and resolve all shooting attacks simultaneously in reality, the scenario in which we're portraying WOULD have had all these units firing at the same time, and so would have been firing as the vehicle jinked and such throughout the turn.

This is the same logic that you have to explain to people who want to shoot in between 2 models in a unit, where they SEEM to have an unobstructed line of sight to their target: You have to assume the models are animated, swapping spots with each other in the unit, tossing each other ammo clips, rolling around to dodge fire, and otherwise NOT being the immobile, innert models that they are, and THEN that 5+ cover save they provide to units behind them, despite having a gap between them makes perfect sense.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sat Feb 25 2017, 21:58

My bad, I just looked at the FAQ without reading the text of the rule itself. Alhough common sense dicates that an immobilised vehicle can't jink, the rules don't prevent them from keeping the save if they jinked before being immobilised.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sun Feb 26 2017, 04:28

Going back to reality for a second: realize how brief 1 turn is. Even ignoring the time dilation that some things like movement causes a single turn occurs over the span of single digit seconds. It seems preposterous to suggest that a vehicle that can move fluidly enough to jink in the first place could be so immobilized as to INSTANTLY stop moving.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sun Feb 26 2017, 11:15

Theres the narrative, and then theres the words and numbers which make up the rules of the game.

I get where you're coming from, but as its written SKimmers get the Jink rule, and Immobilised Skimmers don't. From the moment you become Immobilised, you're in free-fall and crashing. You can;t move side to side and evade things if your fast moving craft is plummeting into the ground. You're bracing, and your thrusters are out.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Sun Feb 26 2017, 17:17

@Squidmaster wrote:
Theres the narrative, and then theres the words and numbers which make up the rules of the game.

I get where you're coming from, but as its written SKimmers get the Jink rule, and Immobilised Skimmers don't. From the moment you become Immobilised, you're in free-fall and crashing. You can;t move side to side and evade things if your fast moving craft is plummeting into the ground. You're bracing, and your thrusters are out.

Uh, no. That's narrative, not rules. If you have jinked already, that provides you with a cover save, even if you subsequently lost the ability to jink. Sure, you can't jink any more, but you've already been given the save, and thus you have it.

The first half of your sentence is all about "Rules as written" and being a stickler for what it says rather than considering the narrative that a turn is a very short period of time, then you pull a 180 and use narrative to try to support your position.

The fact is, it doesn't matter, because you already have the cover save even if you lose jink, rules as written.
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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Mon Feb 27 2017, 00:47

does anyone know how a tournament would rule this?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Mon Feb 27 2017, 00:49

I mean, I'm a TO. If you're unwilling to make the exact argument I made above if it does come up and escalate to the point of being kicked I'd probably recommend checking in with your TO/Judge first.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Mon Feb 27 2017, 01:26

I administer events, and would definitely rule that Immobilized vehicles immediately lose the cover save from Jink.

If it's a big deal to you, I'd recommend asking TOs beforehand.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Mon Feb 27 2017, 01:30

Yep, and this discrepancy is why it's not the hill to die on. Even the advantage you'd have in my area vs Jimsolo's is likely not large enough to outright win games, so any list that uses this to effect can't rely on it.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Jink immobilized   Mon Feb 27 2017, 07:16

Yeah, this isn't something I'd personally ask TOs about in advance. They get plenty of emails already, and when I have something important enough to email about, I want a timely answer, so asking questions that aren't that important works contrary to that.

It doesn't come up often for me. I'd make my best case, argue it at the game if it came up, and just deal with whatever the judge decided. I wouldn't argue it to the point of being kicked.
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