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 Lelith hesperex

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Dynamodez53
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PostSubject: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 16:25

Is it just me or would anyone else like to see lelith in a reaver jetbike with a cluster caltrop and would this make her useful again or still too expensive?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:35

I'm not a big fan of that idea, because Lelith needs to be a badass in just general toe-to-toe melee. If they gave her an ability that let her wound automatically on a 4+ or something, she'd be great. Even rending would be passable(though I probably wouldn't take her with just rending for her price).

The problem is that she is a super-guinsoo slicey dicey stone cold killer of galactic monsters in the fluff, and in the rules she's S3 and only wounds MEQ on 5+, unable to hurt some MCs at all.

Someone else suggested that she should be able to go toe to toe with a primarch in a fairly even fight. I would agree with this assessment, and would be happy to see her price and rules adjusted to see that be the case.(Obviously she'd be cheaper than a primarch since she is solely melee-oriented while I imagine primarchs have ranged abilities.)

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 19:10

Why would she need rending? Doesn't she ignores armour saves?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 20:35

Yes, but she doesn't have a way to wound high toughness models, despite being the Queen Wych of wyches, whom the fluff depicts as being squared off against everything from khymerae and guardsmen, to massive monstrous creatures(who's toughness they cannot hurt in game, but who they miraculously kill in the fluff.)

She needs a way to hurt high toughness things. I think rending would be the worst way to give that to her, but it is the LEAST she requires to even approach the role she plays in the fluff. That's why I suggested a better ability first, and followed that up with the minimum she requires to not suck so bad.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 20:51

I think fleshbane (or an equivalent special rule, maybe a 3+ pseudo-fleshbane) would be what she needs keeping the ability to ignore armour saves.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 21:37

@Logan Frost wrote:
I think fleshbane (or an equivalent special rule, maybe a 3+ pseudo-fleshbane) would be what she needs keeping the ability to ignore armour saves.

Right, which is what I said originally, except I said 4+ because having a model that gets 9-10 attacks, ignoring all armour, wounding ANYTHING on 2+ or 3+ is probably a bit OP. That would lead to:

"Oh, you're a wraithknight? F%#$ you! I'm Lelith Hesparax, and you're dead in 1 round without getting to swing back. Thanks for playing."

Though, I wouldn't be opposed to this becoming the case with a points increase for Lelith.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 22:18

The ideal special rules for her (to my mind) are probably something like this:

Hit & Run
Preferred Enemy
The Penetrating Blade (her existing ignore saves rule)
Quicksilver Dodge (her existing invulnerable save)
A Blade In The Dark - 4+ cover saves against Overwatch (with the ability conferred onto a squad that she joins)
Acrobatic (like Banshees get with their extra 3" on running or charging)
Arena Champion - Lelith is adept at finding weak spots and chinks in armour - her attacks always wound on a 4+, unless a lower number would otherwise be needed.
A League Apart (her existing challenge re-rolls)
The Quick Death - Lelith, and any squad she joins, can charge in the same turn as running. If they do this, their charge counts as disordered.
Queen of Knives - Lelith may only join squads of Wyches or Bloodbrides.
Warlord Trait - Soulthirst (Rage).

This would help Lelith get into combat with something if you get the first turn, without making her invincible outside of it, which I think a lot of people fixate on. Sure, if you don't get the first turn, everything will be firing at her, but that was likely going to happen anyway. I wouldn't want to see her on a jetbike, I'd rather have a new character who rides a jetbike. Or give a Succubus or Archon the ability to take one, or a skyboard... But I'm wishlisting now, and there's already a thread for that!

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 22:18

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
which is what I said originally, except I said 4+

Oh, I thought you were addressing at bladevanes (which actually autowound on 4+ against MEQ anyway), but yes, we are on the same page.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 22:33

As much as I'd love her being able to match Primarchs, we would still be talking about a T3 model that probably costs around 280+ points. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay so much and I don't think Eternal Warrior really fits her so either (which would really be mandatory).


If you are looking for a unit in our codex that has the potential to hunt Primarchs (or at least give them a decent  fight), I'd root for Drazhar.
He already is T/S 4, has Eternal Warrior and is the priciest character in the codex right now (okay, since most stuff is overpriced anyway that doesn't mean a lot).

I'd say make him cost another 50pts but beef up his stats up to 11. Old Demiklaive rules for S6 attacks, 4 wounds, WS8, and a 4++ in challenges.


For Lelith, I'd rather make her the bane of higher-priced HQs. A straight 4+ to wound would not be unreasonable, but for those truely god-like characters, Drazhar just has the better gear.

Drazhar should be the hammer, while Lelith is our scalpel. She should be a duellist type of character that excels most in challenges against higher-priced HQs that are below the 220pts mark. I would like her to have her old "Leagues Apart" rule back, granting extra attacks for the difference in WS.

I think Lelith should be "death from a thousand cuts" incarnate. Actually, if she would cost around 125pts, have the old "Leages Apart" rule and can buy a 10pts Archite Glaive for that +1S I think she would be a very decent character.

When attacking a WS 6 enemy, she receives 3 bonus attacks.
5 (base) + 3 + 1 (charging) = 9 S4 AP2 attacks with the Glaive.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 23:26

Yeah, our vision of who Lelith Hesperax is don't match up, which means we're unlikely to ever agree here.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Tue Feb 21 2017, 23:32

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Yeah, our vision of who Lelith Hesperax is don't match up, which means we're unlikely to ever agree here.

At least we can agree on that Razz
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Dynamodez53
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith hesperex   Wed Feb 22 2017, 12:20

I think we can all agree that she is overpriced and under skilled at the minute. I was reading the gathering storm 2 and when she left yvraine for dead in the arena on a jet bike it made me think that she might be a little better on a jet bike and maybe worth taking. She is such a nice model it's a shame that there isn't really a place for her in a competitive list
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