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 Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 11:50

Hi All,

I am playing around with Ynnari ideas and the Mirrorgaze artefact can create interesting possibilities, while expensive giving the blind rule depending on how it is transferred to the user it could possibly be very good. Now the question is following: would psychic witchfires, novas, templates/blasts and also long range weapons benefit from the blind rule as it is on the model and not on the weapon.

"Any unit hit by one or more models or weapons with this special rule must take an Initiative test at the end of the current phase. If the test is passed, all is well – a shouted warning has caused the warriors to avert their gaze. If the Initiative test is failed, all models in the unit are reduced to Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 1 until the end of their next turn. Should the attacking unit hit themselves, we assume they are prepared and they automatically pass the test. Any model that does not have an Initiative characteristic (for example, non-Walker vehicles, buildings etc.) is unaffected by this special rule."
-"Any unit hit but one or more models", does not make division between how.

Combined with Strength from Death rule a psycher could affect 4+! units at maximum with Blind. Casting one to two witchfires in the psychic phase (novas if affected could be extremely good), shooting potentially twice per turn and then in melee. Also Blind takes affect already from hitting no need to wound... Has anyone looked into this more deeply?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 12:11

I think the question comes down to whether or not a unit that suffers a hit from a psychic power cast by a model with the Blind rule has been "hit by one or more models or weapons with this special rule". Personally I think it's a bit of a stretch but I can see the argument.

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 12:23

Might need a faq on this. That would very well make the cost acceptable, but bit on the troll tastic side with WWP. Blind is not quaranteed against marines but against Tau and Necrons would cause some downward smiles.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:19

Since psychic powers roll to hit, and the rule specifies a model and not just a weapon, I'd say they qualify for blind.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:22

Except you don't suffer a hit from the model, it's from the psychic power. It's a grey area and could do with a FAQ but personally I wouldn't use it myself and wouldn't be happy if my opponent tried to use it that way.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:28

I see your point, but it could be argued you don't suffer the hit from the model but from the shuriken pistol.
The to hit roll is done with the model's BS, so it is the model hitting the target, it's just a different "weapon".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:33

I agree but I can see both sides of the argument and I don't think it's clear either way. I've sent another batch of questions off to GW for the FAQ and have added this to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:33

One is also automatically hit with nova, template and with sensible scatter rolls also from blasts. Per Raw I'd say it works.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:34

Splendid Count A!
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 16:27

Even if it does not apply to psychic powers we could have a unit if incubi w/kaivex w/ Visarch w/shadowseer with counterattack.
Add rampage on two models, it is a ton of attacks even if the enemy charges them.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 16:32

Counter-attack only applies to models with that rule so only the Shadowseer would get the bonus.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 16:49

You are right, I thought it was transferable to the whole unit.
I'm not used to counter-attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 17:56

After skimming through psychic spells descriptions it would make sense that spells with weapon profile, either requiring to hit per ballistic skill or by template/novas as they hit per models under and wound seperately and in rare cases whence spell creates hits e.g. Runes of Fate executioner which then are rolled to wound would be counted towards 'hitting'. Greyer area would be spells like psychic shriek, and other wgich generate wound through other methods.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:27

I doubt this will work. I had previously looked into something similar, essentially using "perfect timing" to try to make my witchfires ignore cover, which the general consensus was that it wouldn't work, because despite having a shooting profile, witchfires are not a weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:35

Perfect timing description explicitly mentions weapons, compared to blind which mentions models or their weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:40

Compared to e.g. Guide and Prescience; guide only gives rerolls in shooting phase compared to prescience which gives to all hit rolls. Argument could be made for prescienced psyker casting Eldritch storm or Vortex of doom could reroll scatter per Raw. Personally per raw I would lean towards that, following that logic also blind should work on to hit or hits generating psychic powers.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:57

I'm interested in hearing what GW has to say here. If they say it works on psychic powers, suddenly that item becomes awesome.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Artefact: Mirrorgaze - Blind rule, which 'hits' and weapons does it affect?   Tue Feb 21 2017, 19:29

indeed
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