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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 17:45

@Massaen wrote:

That said - a must always over rules a may...

This isn't true at all. Context always matters, and the writer of one word may not even be aware of the wording written by another writer.

Example:

You may ignore the word must.

If what you said is true, the previous statement would mean nothing.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 19:50

Is there anything in the BRB that states that units if the same faction are Battle Brothers with each other.

At the moment, i'm of the opinion that RAW you can't start a Ynnari CWE unit in a Raider. Not because of the Factions thing, but because the FAQ specifically forbids Battle Brothers from starting embarked in each others' vehicles. No matter whether they are the same faction, if they are Battle Brothers the FAQ says you can't.

However, if there's something in the BRB about units of the same faction (say within 2 different detachments) treat each other as Battle Brothers then that would quash that interpretation.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 20:25

No, units that share the same faction are expressly NOT battle brothers. Which is why there is debate here, because units of different factions interact using the allies matrix. But I think sharing a faction, and thus expressly NOT being of "different factions" precludes them from having to use the allies rules at all. They only keep their old faction for effects that only work on that faction, for instance the fearless bubble that an Avatar of Khaine extends. If they didn't keep their old faction, that bubble would no longer effect them. The same is true for any special abilities/hatred/preferred enemy that targetted them. It would cease to function. THAT is why they keep their old faction, on top of their new faction. NOT to prevent them from being able to use their own army's transports.

The problem with debating this is that we know it's not GW's intent to make a mixed faction like this who can't use their own transports, but we don't know if we'll ever get a FAQ saying so. So, while intent is basically crystal clear(although I'm sure someone will try to claim it isn't), we're left debating a RAW interaction that has no answer.

To drive home my point, look at it like this: Even Kabalite warriors wouldn't be able to ride in raiders under the opposing viewpoint, because both the raiders and the warriors are simultaneously Ynarri and Dark Eldar. And since Ynarri and Dark Eldar ally as battle brothers, under that interpretation, even dark eldar ynarri units wouldn't be able to ride in dark eldar ynarri transports because they're ALSO ynarri transports. I think this pretty summarily shows that this is not the intended interpretation.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 20:48

Exactly and I've argued that THAT is EXACTLY how it works but everyone rejected that then, so why the inconsistency now?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 21:10

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Exactly and I've argued that THAT is EXACTLY how it works but everyone rejected that then, so why the inconsistency now?

What inconsistency? Did I disagree with you on this?

I think I've been pretty consistantly on board with being able to start on each other's transports because they share a faction.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 21:23

This argument predates this release. It had to do with whether or not battlebrother relationships exist across units that have identical factions. Your being consistent at present.

I do want to put out a wrinkle this causes with the Independant character problem: if I add an IC to a unit it now has 2 factions. Why does that violate the battlebrothers errata and this doesn't?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Tue Feb 21 2017, 21:49

Ok, I think I might know what you're talking about now. I'm not immune to shifting my stance with the passing of time, community consensus, releasing of FAQs, and tournament rulings.

I never thought GW would stick with the 1 grenade per turn in melee ruling they made in the Draft FAQ. I was wrong, so I've had to adapt my perspective to this new reality. That happens frequently in a game where multiple new books are released every month. Try not to hold me to any stated perspective that predates current releases. Wink

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 20:02

Assuming you can start in a transport...

What are thoughts on transport heavy Ynnari armies? I get a game every other week, so I don't have a lot of practice in. Do the transports limit Soulburst too much? Is a mass venom/raider army still viable?
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 20:36

I guess it depends on what the FAQ will say.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:08

@Logan Frost wrote:
I guess it depends on what the FAQ will say.

I don't think it does, and it doesn't pay to wait for GW FAQs. It took us 3 years to get the last one.

If all ynarri count as battle brothers with dark eldar/eldar/harlequins, then no ynarri units can start in ANY transports, since both the transports and the riders will have both ynarri and their home faction as factions. This means there isn't a single unit that can start even in their own dedicated transport under that interpretation(because they'd be battle brothers with themselves), which makes that intepretation obviously not the intent.

Illustration:

Kabalite Warrior is Ynarri / Dark Eldar.
Dark Eldar Raider is Dark Eldar / Ynarri.

The ynarri part of each unit would be considered battle brothers with the dark eldar part of each other unit, which would preclude them from starting embarked, despite it being the dedicated transport of that unit. This obviously is not the intent.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:25

I was referring to the interaction between transport and passenger in regard of soulburst.
If being inside a transport let's you still use soulburst, I'll be the first to spam raiders full of everything.
If soulburst works only of foot probably just a couple of venoms will hit the table.

As for transport sharing between factions, the point is moot.
They are all ynnari so a single faction, battle brothers does not apply inside the same detachment.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:27

Yes it does. It only doesn't in the Reborn warhost because they all share a faction. Don't forget that The Visarch and Yvraine both only Ynnari can be taken in any detachment. Because of the Battle Brothers FAQ nothing gives them permission to begin the game in their own detachments vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:51

I'm sorry, I should have been more accurate, what I was saying is that battle brother does not apply to units in the same ynnari detachment, in which CW units are ynnari just like DE raiders.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:55

Precisely
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PsychicHobo
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Wed Feb 22 2017, 23:55

Ugh, this is messy. At the very least we could try the whole 'starting unembarked' thing but it's risky as hell and prevents any deep striking shenanigans.

What worries me more is that GW does sometimes decide to throw in a whole new rule - such as the very Battle Brother transport ruling that instigated this!

By the by, what is the likelihood of Forgeworld producing a possible errata? I'm mainly eyeing up that gorgeous Tantalus but at the moment it can only be Ynnari by way of dedicated transport for a Court...
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Feb 23 2017, 01:03

Forgeworld rarely releases FAQs, as far as I'm aware. The most recent example being several years ago, I think.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Feb 23 2017, 05:06

FAQ for 6th for a lot of stuff was 1 month before 7th hit.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Feb 23 2017, 10:09

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Illustration:

Kabalite Warrior is Ynarri / Dark Eldar.
Dark Eldar Raider is Dark Eldar / Ynarri.
This example, I have to disagree with your logic. I think because both units have both factions the same, they can't be considered to have different factions. I think matching Dark Eldar from one unit with Ynnari from the other is stretching the logic too much.

There is still the question of whether two units of the same faction are Battle Brothers, which based on the graphic in the BRB they are, and based on the text they are not. If they were considered Battle Brothers that would mean no units could start in any transport, so for absurdity reasons alone, I think the text applies rather than the figure.

It seems thoroughly bizarre to not be able to start in a transport from your own detachment, so I don't expect that is intended, but I thought the Battle Brothers can't start in transports rule was silly in the first place, so my expectations around intent might well be unreliable.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Feb 23 2017, 18:40

@Kantalla wrote:
There is still the question of whether two units of the same faction are Battle Brothers, which based on the graphic in the BRB they are, and based on the text they are not.

It was ruled that they are not, and that text always overrides a graphic, as shown with other things, like the "Allied Detachment" from the main rulebook: The graphic clearly shows 3 slots for troops, yet the text only allows for 2 troop selections. In all cases that I'm aware of, people follow the text over the graphic.



@Kantalla wrote:
I think matching Dark Eldar from one unit with Ynnari from the other is stretching the logic too much.

I agree, but that IS the logic that's being used to begin with. They're arguing that the inclusion of any faction that IS "Battle Brothers" establishes the limitations of battle brothers, despite ALSO sharing the same faction as well.

This logic applies whether it's pure DE + Ynarri / DE, or both Ynarri / DE. In either case, the "Battle Brothers" designation would apply under that logic.

Is it ABSURD?? Of course it is! That is my entire point. The foundation of "logic" that this argument is built upon is absurd.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Feb 23 2017, 22:43

I had never noticed the Allied Detachment discrepancy. Interesting but ultimately if you want to take the third Troop you could call it a CAD and it will never matter anyway.

Mostly I agree with what you are saying. The only bit I am objecting to is that I think two units that are both Dark Eldar + Ynnari have the same faction.

There is a potential issue between a Craftworld Eldar + Ynnari and Dark Eldar + Ynnari unit combination, because these do have different factions. I say potential issue, because it seems reasonable to me to override that with both are Ynnari, but that isn't an official ruling.

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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Mar 23 2017, 07:10

in case of you missed it:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Gathering_Storm_II_v1.0.pdf

GW wrote:
TRANSPORTS
Q: How do the models/units with mixed Factions work? Can units that share at least one Faction start the game embarked on a Transport?
A: Ynnari models have two Factions (except in the case of Yvraine, the Visarch and the Yncarne, who only have one). You must consider both of their Factions to determine their levels of Alliance and which Transports they may be embarked on at the beginning of the game. For example, an Eldar/Ynnari unit shares the same Factions as other Eldar/Ynnari, but is of different Factions from (though Battle Brothers with) Dark Eldar/Ynnari and Harlequins/Ynnari. An Eldar/Ynnari unit can therefore only begin the game embarked if it is embarked on an Eldar/Ynnari vehicle.
Note that Yvraine and the Visarch can begin the game embarked on Ynnari vehicles (regardless of those vehicles’ other Factions).
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Mar 23 2017, 07:12

That's the reason this thread hasn't moved in a month. You'll notice that the last comment is from before the FAQ dropped.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Transports   Thu Mar 23 2017, 10:18

I take no joy in being right in this instance. I felt the right option was anything Ynnari should be same faction. At least there is a clear answer.

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