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 Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Mon Feb 20 2017, 20:38

So I was trying to come up with a different way then I have seen the new Ynnari play. More specifically, trying to use some of the formations i have seen called trash or not worth playing.

I reread the Aledari Bladehost Formation and the "United in Death" rule they have. My question is, if I cast Word of the Phoenix on my Bladehost, can I use the United In Death rule to trigger ALL of the formation's Soulburst or no? Also, if I am reading United in Death correctly, all of the Bladehost need to complete the same Soulburst action (Move, Shoot, or Charge) right?

If I can cast Word of the Phoenix and trigger United in Death, I feel the formation gets a lot stronger and almost worth taking instead of an after though. Granted it does not make them powerhouses but triggering all of the to move again to set up charges everywhere after the psychic phase could be very beneficial and put pressure on the enemy quite fast.

For reference, here are both rules quoted:

United In Death: "Before choosing a unit from this Formation to make a Soulburst Action, you can declare that the whole Formation is United In Death. if you do so, the Soulburst action you choose applies to all units from the Formation. You may use this ability once per turn... "

Word of the Phoenix: WoP is a psychic power that targets a friendly unit with the Strength From Death special rule within 24''. That unit can immediately make a Soulburst action.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Mon Feb 20 2017, 21:14

Yes, it would seem that would work. For it to make a first turn assaults a possibility, you'd need to have transports for everyone in the bladehost though, so that you could move transports 6", disembark 6", move 6" with soulburst, then assault up to 12".

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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:15

Word of the phoenix could be used to allow a beastpack (or bikes) to charge T1. 24" movement before charging could take many opponent by surprise.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:17

Or Hellions. Any way you slice it, that's a great idea for a power I'd overlooked.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:18

@Mononcule wrote:
Word of the phoenix could be used to allow a beastpack (or bikes) to charge T1. 24" movement before charging could take many opponent by surprise.

This is a really good point. Word of the pheonix beastpacks could be pretty brutal, particularly if they're given other buffs, or used to slingshot melee IC's into combat.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 02:54

A Skyrunner Seer Council could use that to great effect.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 10:45

Yeah, I picked up on word of the phoenix straight away.

I run reaverspam and a unit of 6 with 2CC charging T1 is a thing now.

Its pretty gross. king
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 11:33

It would be nice to have a trick to increase our chance to pick the power. I dont know, something that allow a psyker to choose his powers for example... Razz

If a farseer is your warlord in a warhost you have ~65% chance to get it. Add a second and it raise to ~82.5%

An ideal scenario could be a beastpack that tie 1 or 2 units T1. During the opponent's turn one of the units dies in assault (the beasts or one of the opponent units) so you can spawn the Yncarne in the assault phase, ready to cast and charge for T2.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:26

@Jimsolo wrote:
Or Hellions.  Any way you slice it, that's a great idea for a power I'd overlooked.

Remember Hellions are Jump infantry so they can only use there jump move once per turn. So with a soulburst action you could


  • move 12" + 6" soulburst + 2-12 charge

  • move 6" + 12" soulburst + 2-12 charge

  • move 6" + 6" soulburst + 2-12 charge w/reroll and hammer of wrath


I didn't add run because i assume you want to shoot.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:29

No, I believe they can use it either in the movement or assault phase. So 12"+12"+2d6" will work.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:31

it does say once per turn though, so I think Dalamar may well be correct (sadly).

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:53

Sorry for not including it in the previous post. here is the quote.

"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn."

marked for emphasis.

Soulburst actions are going to be all about the details.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 15:56

So, seeing as the BRB states that whenever the word 'turn' is used without a qualifier they mean 'player turn', that means if a Soulburst is triggered in your opponent's turn you can use the Jump pack again.

Neat Smile

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:01

@Dalamar wrote:
Sorry for not including it in the previous post. here is the quote.

"Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn."

marked for emphasis.

Soulburst actions are going to be all about the details.

An argument could be made that choosing to use it to increase movement in your movement phase effects your movement both times, because during a soulburst action, you're told to move "as if it's your movement phase". If a unit had a special rule that allowed it 2 moves in it's movement phase, the jump pack would apply to both moves because it says it can only be used once per turn, but that it effects movement in either the move or assault phase. It doesn't say it only effects movement or assault in those phases once. The "Can only be used once" is a limiter on the activation of the ability, not the effect.

I also wanted to chime in with the possibilities for swooping hawks here. With this ability, they can move 36" a turn, then charge 12" with fleet.

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 20:47

Quote :
I also wanted to chime in with the possibilities for swooping hawks here. With this ability, they can move 36" a turn, then charge 12" with fleet.

But if it only allows it 1 time a turn like i said then, move 18" move 6" run 6" charge up to 12" for a max of 42" if you run.

Remember they are Jump infantry as well so only 18" move once a turn or re-roll charge distance.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Tue Feb 21 2017, 21:05

Like I said in the part of my argument that you didn't quote, I don't think that is correct.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Wed Feb 22 2017, 02:56

Im going to side with the move 12" twice team

I would argue that its RAI, but you guys are getting awfully technical with the RAW SfD wording.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Wed Feb 22 2017, 06:29

I'm going to agree with betray by stating the contrariwise position which I believe would also be true: If one only moved as infantry, but did move it would be obligated to not use it's jump pack in the soulburst'd movement should it occur during that same turn. This is due to the specificity of the language used. Since it is "as if it were your movement phase" and in that turn you had a movement phase in order for you to fully follow through on that chosen command you could not change how you did so.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Wed Feb 22 2017, 09:23

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The "Can only be used once" is a limiter on the activation of the ability, not the effect.

It says "Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn". If you use Soulburst to gain a second 12" move then you have clearly used them more than once.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Wed Feb 22 2017, 20:39

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The "Can only be used once" is a limiter on the activation of the ability, not the effect.

It says "Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn". If you use Soulburst to gain a second 12" move then you have clearly used them more than once.

No you haven't, because using the jump pack once allows you to move further in the movement phase, regardless of how many TIMES you're given permission to move.

Example: Activate jump pack allows you to EITHER:

A. Move 12" whenever you move in the movement phase, or
B. Reroll Charge distance in the assault phase and get hammer of wrath attacks.

Now, you may only activate the jetpack once per turn, which activates one of the 2 scenarios above, but that doesn't mean that if you get to move twice, scenario "A" isn't active for both movements. They both fall within "the movement phase", and so would be effected by the jetpack status put into effect by activating scenario "A" above.

This is the precise rule from the rulebook:
Rulebook wrote:
Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn.

It says that it works for the movement PHASE or the assault PHASE, not 1 single movement action, so it would effect all movement that is considered to have occurred in the associated phase.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:14

And since you move "as if it were your movement phase" however you moved then is how you must move now.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Wed Feb 22 2017, 21:16

@amorrowlyday wrote:
And since you move "as if it were your movement phase" however you moved then is how you must move now.

Precisely.

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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Thu Feb 23 2017, 06:00

I feel you are adding "whenever you move in the movement phase". The jump pack rule just states may be used once per turn. I see what you are saying, I just disagree because I think you are artificially expanding on the rule.

Personally I wish jump infantry could use their jump packs all the time... it's not like any jump infantry are Uber powerful.

Rasp
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Thu Feb 23 2017, 06:14

Then you simply don't understand the argument. That's totally irrelevant to the greater argument. Strength from Death explicitly states that you move "as if it were your movement phase". In the BrB towards the end of the initial subsection of the jump unit rules "Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement" and this comes immediately after the section where it describes how you choose which you will use and when you may use it.

Because we now have rules that allow us to take 2 defacto movement phases, or an additional charge, in a single turn that sentence no longer simply refers the manner of movement for the squad, but instead towards how the unit must move for all movement phases and charges in the turn.

For you to take a soulburst action in your turn you would have already had to have been offered an opportunity to move. Nothing gives you permission to move differently in your 2 movement phases, and your suggesting that there is artificially expands the rules.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aeldari Bladehost + Word of the Phoenix   Thu Feb 23 2017, 09:25

Yeah, I think I've been swayed on this one. Whilst it does say once per turn, that does effect all movement in the movement phase and soulburst allows you to move 'as if it were the movement phase'. There may be hope for Hellions yet!

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