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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 13:04

I'm wondering how to use the troop slot in a warhost. The usual kabalites seems underwhelming as pfp and objsec seems a better fit for them than SfD.

GW told that the new rules would make weaker units worthwhile, but I dont feel the new bonus is strong enough to field actual wyches.

This leaves these options: squatbikes, troupes without crescendo or other eldars units. What do you guys think would be a sound choice?

I want to try troupes, but the loss of crescendo is quite huge.
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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 13:11

The loss of crescendo is huge?? You can move as normal, let a unit nearby kill something to trigger soulburst, move the harlies again, and charge with them. It's more or less the same thing except your guaranteed a 6"move for soul burst as oppose to the d6 run move. You can do the same thing for wyches and add a shadowseer to them for veil.

As a sound choice, take a Cad of DE or elder for your objective secured. Take scatter bikes for the war host.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 14:06

Why do you lose Crescendo?

However, to answer your question: I think Warriors in Venoms benefit from the new rules, as well as Reavers.  Deep Striking Scourges, as well.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think even wyches might benefit a little more from SfD than PfP.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 14:41

I really like the Harlie Troupes as troops. They fill a DE gap of high S low AP, both in CC (with the Carress/Kiss) and in shooting (dual Shurikin Cannon transports for 5pts more than dual SC Venoms). The only bad thing is the price of these units (basically the cost of a fully loaded SM Tac squad in a DP).

To get over this, you can just take a vanilla 5 man warrior squad for all of 40 pts. Just sit it on a back field objective where ObSec wont really matter.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 16:16

@Jimsolo wrote:
Why do you lose Crescendo?

It's a formation benefit so you don't get it in a troop slot.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 19:32

Ah, I gotcha. I thought people were saying they lost it even when taking the formation in a Reborn Warhost.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 21:16

I mean, the answer should be obvious. Bring scatbikes for power of bring whatever you want if you want to bring something other than scatbikes.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sat Feb 18 2017, 22:24

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I mean, the answer should be obvious. Bring scatbikes for power of bring whatever you want if you want to bring something other than scatbikes.

Would you re-word that a little more clearly please?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 01:34

I'll do it for them: Bring scatbikes and scatbikes alone as they are far and away the best option. If not bring literally anything else because the cost benefit differential is so far and away lower for every other option that they aren't worth considering.

Frankly my conclusion is that that is 100% correct.

Harlies don't benefit from being the troop option because either of the formations that you can field them in as part of the Reborn Warhost give enough benefits that using them as troops is a waste of points. Furthermore since you can now take them as a CAD with the Visarch or Yvraine there are actually 3 situationally better options: Masque for crescendo, Cegorachs jest in the RWH for crescendo and Soulburst or Cast of players for Crusader aura and soulburst, or CAD for obsec.

Rangers are downright terrible if they don't have obsec.

Frankly I don't think wyches benefit much from soulburst.

If you can't soulburst inside vehicles then Kabalites are exceedingly meh.

Guardians and storm guardians don't become good because of soulburst as they still need to get close enough for those actions to matter with their 5+, and they are directly competing in that role with black guardians in the elite slot.

Non-scat/shuricannon ie cat Jetbikes have a combination of the ranger and guardian problems. At 51 pts they excel due to obsec, which they don't have here, they have no teeth if a nearby unit of yours is killed, and they have no business being close enough to the opponent to use that twinlinked catapult.

I hate Dire avengers. That's all. (but seriously their issue is that any of their formations are a much better way to field them)

IF Trueborn count as a troop selection in the reborn warhost even though their battlefield role changes they are a close second but until we get an FAQ that says either way I'm unwilling to consider them.


As I said before THIS is what's keeping me from using the detachment. We get 6 troop slots and only 1 or 2 formulations of 1 unit that actually benefits from being taken in that slot. Everything else makes perfectly decent fodder, but that fodder doesn't actually need to have soulburst. Couple this with a severe lack of space as almost all the good choices are FA and you have a really stifling detachment that purports to let me do what I want but really doesn't.

The triumvirate itself, by making it possible to splash Harlies and giving a LoW for a straight up DE CAD, is where the real 'here's the tools to play how you want' comes from. The detachment itself is hobbled by community complaint about older meta-detachments.

TL;DR: Everything but scatbikes, even other windriders, lose too much by being taken in this detachment to be worth considering.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 02:57

Warriors in Venoms get you two units towards your seven unit sweet spot for only a single slot, as well as a Venom, which still remains an awesome piece of equipment even when compared to other things.

Personally, I think Windriders or Venomspam warriors.

However, if Lawrence's No Retreat! victories have taught us anything, it's the recurring theme of 'everything counts in large amounts.' I think you could build a competitive list with Dire Avengers, Harlequins, or even Wyches if you put it together correctly.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:06

You can build an effective list with those options, Jimsolo. You can build a list that people can point to and say, "that list has something going on." It will have a strategy, it will probably be fun, and it will have effective tools for different things. However, if you run Ynnari Dire Avengers, Harlequins, or Wyches as a competitive list, they're going to melt like a popsicle on hot asphalt the moment they run against a real meta army. If you're not the Wayne Gretzky of 40k you're not going to be able to pull wins off reliably with those units in that slot in that army.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:11

I think you may be selling them short. I think that the combination of the Ynnari faction buffs, formation benefits, and the Ynnari faction combos give units that were previously underwhelming a great deal more potential.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:17

That's overly hyperbolic. It won't lose solely by hitting a meta army, it will lose if and when it hits the wrong meta army, of which there may be several.

If you care about every single slot in your army your not min-maxing properly. An 1850 War convocation clocks in at ~2380pts. If I can match that with Rangers and shredder kabalites as my troops I don't see how you think ~100-200 pts of tax is going to kill you. The game simply doesn't work that way unless your lacking in either redundancy or synergy, in which case you have a significantly wider pool to worry about above and beyond meta lists.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:22

You're right, there are meta armies they will excel at and others they won't even stand a chance against. The lack of ob-sec increases the latter category significantly since one of the main ways CWE/DE played against bad match-ups was sacrificial scoring with fast obsec against overwhelming enemy forces. Also you're likely to run into a wizard chess player at any given event and they're going to school you 6 ways to Sunday if you don't have the tools to deal with their 4th dimensional gameplay.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:23

Oh absolutely, and you'll find that lack of obsec is the disqualifying factor almost across the board in my comment 6 up.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:24

I think you really hit the nail on the head. 'Redundancy and synergy' are two of the biggest keys to victory in list-building, in my opinion. I think you can compensate for one with the other, but I can't think of any tournament winning list I've seen that didn't have both to a great deal, or one to an extreme deal.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 03:27

Nah I just tee'd you up.

This:

Quote :
both to a great deal, or one to an extreme deal.

is the strike.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 06:44

@Jimsolo wrote:
Warriors in Venoms get you two units towards your seven unit sweet spot for only a single slot, as well as a Venom, which still remains an awesome piece of equipment even when compared to other things.

Agreed.

Scatpacks are king. Everyone knows that but i will still take min venom kabbies and make them work.
Scatpacks make me sick to the stomach. pale
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 06:48

I think the fact that "everyone knows that" is a strike against scatpacks: everyone knows how good they are, so everyone serious about a competitive list will have a plan for how to contend with them. Meanwhile, sixty wyches dropping in with twelve venoms, immediately disgorging and hucking haywire grenades, and then getting out of sequence charges off during the opponent's turn is something people haven't planned for.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari troops slot   Sun Feb 19 2017, 06:50

That's 1560 pts though. Lhamaens for hq's? Wink oooh and a walker USF for null deploy...
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