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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Double Reborn    Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:45

If you have two Reborn hosts within the same army and they both have 7 units, you would get Warhost of Ynnead on both. The way the rules are written, if any unit is destroyed, you can select two units for Soulburst.

The selection is of a unit with Power from Death, which all units would have. So that should make it work that from any u it dying you could select any two units for Soulburst.

Any major issues with that interpretation?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:52

Yep. The BRB FAQ very specifically states that command benefits only apply to those who occupy the detachment. This simply happens to be the first one to care about a game state event and injects an any variable.

So in short: Your interpretation might be legit. we won't know until they issue an FAQ on the book.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Fri Feb 17 2017, 03:16

That seems like the way it works. Each Warhost with 7+ units gives you an additional SfD activation.

370 pts gives you a Warhost with 7 DE units, btw.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 06:49

Yes we saw this too and came to the same thought that you get to use it for all detachments.

The more detachments tho the less likely you will keep that 7+ unit limit.

With some discussion we felt 2 is the best GT style games, anymore and you are getting to close to that limit and the other player can easily pick the right units to make sure you get under that 7 unit limit.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 06:52

See I haven't seen anything that suggests that that is how that works. As far as I can tell it's like the USF. Take 7+ units at start and get an extra SFD for the whole game.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 06:59

@amorrowlyday wrote:
See I haven't seen anything that suggests that that is how that works. As far as I can tell it's like the USF. Take 7+ units at start and get an extra SFD for the whole game.

It says this detachment, if I have 2 detachments each one then has "each detachment"

And its not 1 for the whole game it says "each time a unit is destroyed"

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:00

I read it the same as amorrowlyday. It is the same verbiage used for other start of game items. I'll have to check my Dark Angel codex, but I'm fairly certain it is the same language as used for taking two demi-companies and getting free stuff.

How did it work on the taped game from the GW?

Also, editing from a phone is awesome. Good change!


Last edited by Myrvn on Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:01; edited 1 time in total
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:00

Right. You're misunderstanding us. I'm saying you don't lose the bonus SFD when a detachment drops below 7 units.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:01

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Right. You're misunderstanding us. I'm saying you don't lose the bonus SFD when a detachment drops below 7 units.

Explain?

Edit: "If this detachment has 7 or more you slect 1 additional"

I dont understand what i'm not understanding.

Edit 2:
@Myrvn wrote:
I read it the same as amorrowlyday. It is the same verbiage used for other start of game items. I'll have to check my Dark Angel codex, but I'm fairly certain it is the same language as used for taking two demi-companies and getting free stuff.

How did it work on the taped game from the GW?

Also, editing from a phone is awesome.  Good change!

But SM book say "if you have 2" so the wording is different. That means if you take 2 and then 2 again that OTHER 2 will get free rhinos as well... I dont see how this changes things? Other than that would be a large point game lol.

Edit^ If you are talking about a "demi-company" and not a gladious strike force, then the Demi company say "If you have 2 or more" that wording is a huge difference.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:23

The way I read it, each Reborn Warhost with 7+ units gives you an extra SfD activation.

In addition, the bonus activation is determined by how many units are in the list, not how many are on the table or still alive.

This is actually remarkably easy to do. Venom-warriorsx3 plus lhamaen, 370 pts. 335 if you drop the blasters. That's 7 units right there.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:27

Okay Jimsolo but do you lose it for that detachment when 1 venom dies?

Nm I'm not sure how I missed your middle sentence.


Last edited by amorrowlyday on Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:28; edited 1 time in total
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 07:28

@Jimsolo wrote:
The way I read it, each Reborn Warhost with 7+ units gives you an extra SfD activation.

In addition, the bonus activation is determined by how many units are in the list, not how many are on the table or still alive.

This is actually remarkably easy to do.  Venom-warriorsx3 plus lhamaen, 370 pts.  335 if you drop the blasters. That's 7 units right there.

I see what you are saying about that. But the Wording still leads me to think 7 on the table. Only b.c once you go "under" 7 on the table you no longer are including 7+ in your detachment.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 10:06

When a unit dies you don't remove it from the detachment - just the table

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 10:20

I'm fairly sure no Thousand Sons players have been giving up their re-roll saving throws of a 1 if they no longer have the maximum number of units in a detachment following casualties in a battle.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 15:18

So.. along the same vein... Does the Autarch give a bonus to reserve roles if dead? Still part of the detachment?

"If your army contains... " (Autarch)
"If this Detachment includes 7..." (Reborn)
"If your army includes two..." (Lion's Blade)

So the Autarch is written differently than the Lion's Blade and the Reborn Host. My understanding is that if the Autarch dies, his ability is lost, so "contains" is less than stellar.

However, the Lion's Blade uses "include", which doesn't fall apart when a unit dies. Therefore, it appears that "includes" is from army construction phase.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 16:10

The autarch has the res. man. rule. Not the detachment.

The 7+ units rule reminds me of an old riddle:
An elephant has 4 legs on the ground. If it lifts one how many legs does the elephant has?

The same is true for the detachment with 7 units, if one dies how many units the detachment has?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 18:29

I've actually seen people argue that technically you don't lose the autarch's reserve manipulation even if the autarch dies. I've never seen those people clearly proven wrong, though most people have agreed they wouldn't try to convince most opponents to accept that a model's special rule works even after they're dead, simply due to the attitude you could expect from most people when you tell them that.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 18:31

That's because they can't be. We're given a bonus if they are included in an army. "Lists" don't exist as far as the actual rules are concerned so there is no mechanic by which we'd lose it since none is proscribed in the Autarch USR itself.

Tho, I'm making this stance as the sort of person who is so aggregiously going to upset that sort of person that the Autarch won't be addressed.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 18:37

The intent of the comment wasn't so much to argue for the Autarch keeping rules so much as compare/contrast the rules. I wouldn't argue to keep the reserve shenanigans with a dead Autarch. However, the difference in wording does seem to make it clear that the Reborn Host keeps the rule even if the number of alive units is less than 7.

And... I'm not sure about multiple detachments giving extra Soulbursts. RAW it probably does, but the original question was primarily if it could be used between detachments.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 18:39

Oh. That's a completely different point then. My answer to that is absolutely not, most likely. Barring an FAQ I'd imagine that runs afoul of the FAQ that says that command benefits only effect the members of the detachment.

I'm referring to your last point with my above comment. I still don't think the bonus goes away.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 18:41

If the Command Benefit only benefits members of that detachment, that's fine. I could see the argument for that. Only a member of that Warhost gets to use the bonus SfD. But the initial SFD can be used by any legal target. And each 7+ Warhost would still get their own bonus activation.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 19:18

@Jimsolo wrote:
If the Command Benefit only benefits members of that detachment, that's fine.  I could see the argument for that.  Only a member of that Warhost gets to use the bonus SfD.  But the initial SFD can be used by any legal target.  And each 7+ Warhost would still get their own bonus activation.

I would tend to agree with this interpretation, adding that a 7+ warhost continues to qualify as a 7+ warhost even after being reduced to 6 or less units alive.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 19:20

I also agree with that.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 19:45

The more I talk to others and re-read it the more it changes lol, but I feel now after re-reading and talk etc... it is 1 soulburst per kill per armor, then for each detachment you have that is 7+ you will get 1 additional.

Example, 3 Detachments all 7+ you will get 4 Soulburst actions.

Also many are saying the 7+ is per list not units on table.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Double Reborn    Mon Feb 20 2017, 19:47

I completely agree with that provided those "extra" soulburst actions can only be used within their given detachments due to the Command Benefit FAQ.
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