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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 01:32

I always seem to have a problem against armies where tanks, even those with only AV 11 11 10 such as a Rhino are spammed. I've tried using Scourges, Ravagers, and even Reaver Jetbike squads but firing these heavy hitters at low point transports hardly seems worth it given the fact that they all exceed 100 points (at least, the way I use them) for a relatively low rate of fire. In the case of Scourges and Reavers, it always takes a turn of deployment to get them into action and they are almost always blasted off the table due to their offensive capabilities.

Enter the Ulthwe Strike Force.

With the ability to deepstrike without scattering on the very first turn, one would be able to place a Viper or Warwalker squad (or model) in cover and excellent line of sight to enemy vehicles/heavy infantry. Supported by Guardian squads, this seems like it has amazing alpha-strike potential, and if I'm not mistaken, would allow for null deployment as well (units come one turn 1). More specifically with my anti-tank problem, for half the points of a Ravager of squad of Scourges, a Viper and Warwalker can fire 7-8 strength 6 shots from across the table (although this seems mean and kinda obvious as most Eldar units are better than the Dark Eldar equivalent).

I think this might supplement a Dark Eldar force quite nicely. What are your thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 01:45

I don't disagree with you. Null deploying via USF seems like a solid move.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:03

Yeah good units are good. My question is why weren't you running deep-striking guardians and war walkers before?

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:16

Because Deep striking Corsair Reavers have 2 bodies less of tax and Deep Striking Wasps have Chariot HoW. Wink

Oh and I did the numbers: you could run an all scatbike Null deploy army of 12 squads of 5xScatbikes at 1800pts exactly if you wanted to now. Will that 50pt handicap matter? In all likelihood probably not.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:22

Oh sure, YOU can talk about scatbikes.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:36

Everyone can talk about Scatbikes; they're a good option. (I don't ever recall anyone seeing anyone say they weren't.)

But I don't think they're the only option for a Ynnari list.

I DO think they might be the only way I'd run a USF. The USF rules don't make Vypers or War Walkers any more attractive to me than they were. Guardians maybe, but even then that one's iffy.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:38

I'd be willing to consider a single detachment of walkers, or mixed with walkers taking 1-2 slots, if I could take them in squadrons of 6.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:44

Walkers have Battle Focus AND Scout. If you weren't running them before I see no reason to run them now.

The reasons for running deep striking Vypers are the same as the reasons for running Vypers at all. There are none.

Guardian Defenders with an Archon with a WWP is not that much of a price hike from the Black Guardians and they come with ob-sec and Battle Focus and aren't limited by being 9" away from an enemy. People don't run that though because it's trash.

If you wanna plop down a bunch of T3 5+ dudes 9" away from the business end of someone's gunline go right ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:48

If I plop 80 folks down there it doesn't matter that THEIR guns at 9" away. they aren't going to get an opportunity to shoot back. Same with 144 scatter laser shots on Av10 walkers. 72 is meh enough that the regular unit having scout becomes a legitimate loss of point value tho.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:51

Null deployment is really the edge here, to my mind. It's the only reason to take these units in the USF instead of a Reborn Warhost.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:54

@amorrowlyday Do whatever you want, but if that's your list I don't think the Dark Eldar tactics forum is the correct place for it.

@Jimsolo null deployment is nice I guess.

Daemonic Incursions, Vrak's Unending Host, and anyone with a dual VSG are going to eat these lists alive though.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:56

@TeenageAngst Basketball No I suppose not, though then just to be pedantic this whole thread should actually be in the Corsairs, Craftworld, Harlies sub-forum. I think I'll walk on the wild side until someone who has the authority to tell me off does so.

Your points for Jim are accurate though, so I guess I want to twist the conversation to this angle:

What's the cheapest effective support USF detachment? 4x Storm guardian equivalents?


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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:57

@Jimsolo wrote:
The USF rules don't make Vypers or War Walkers any more attractive to me than they were.  Guardians maybe, but even then that one's iffy.

First turn no-scatter deep striking war walkers for 1st turn bright lances to rear armour doesn't sound bad. 9 inches is tight but manageable against most opponents to get in their backfield, and they still offer us a flexible null deployment option when we're concerned about an alpha strike and our opponent is going first. Furthermore, because the USF isn't a part of the Ynnari detachment, they retain their battle focus, so you can almost guarantee your ability to make it into rear firing arcs.

A full USF formation of dual bright lance/starcannon war walkers is 300 points. A full USF of scatterbikes is 360. I can see both of them being useful, depending on what you're looking for out of them, and sometimes that 60 points will make all the difference.

EDIT: Entire conversation about walkers occurred while I was doing some multitasking and writing this, haha.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 03:01

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@amorrowlyday Do whatever you want, but if that's your list I don't think the Dark Eldar tactics forum is the correct place for it.

You know, I've heard people use this excuse to silence people with list or tactics ideas so many times now, and I really think it's time we re-address this as a general rule. The various eldar factions are so closely related via gameplay at this point that I find these attempts to intentionally divide them and corral them into a single "Craftworld & non-DE" subforum to be tiresome, unnecessary, and in many cases, an excuse to be rude.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 03:05

Nah @BetrayTheWorld That ones deserved, and I've presumed in middle jest, since I called there constant referral to scatbikes out elsewhere.

I think you're probably right about brightlance/starcannons being the best option for walkers in this detachment.

Building on my previous comment: Since we need to fill this detachment with 4 things is better to spam one thing or double up on 2 and send one pair after something (infantry) and another after something else (vehicles)?
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 03:08

Quote :
That ones deserved since I called there constant referral to scatbikes out elsewhere

It's like I can't win for losing.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
You know, I've heard people use this excuse to silence people with list or tactics ideas so many times now, and I really think it's time we re-address this as a general rule. The various eldar factions are so closely related via gameplay at this point that I find these attempts to intentionally divide them and corral them into a single "Craftworld & non-DE" subforum to be tiresome, unnecessary, and in many cases, an excuse to be rude.

I said he could take what he wants. Let's be clear here though, people were complaining about me talking about scatbikes and spiders and what do we have here? Scatter lasers on walkers and deep striking scatbikes for more points per model. Presentation is everything I swear.

Quote :
First turn no-scatter deep striking war walkers for 1st turn bright lances to rear armour doesn't sound bad. 9 inches is tight but manageable against most opponents to get in their backfield, and they still offer us a flexible null deployment option when we're concerned about an alpha strike and our opponent is going first. Furthermore, because the USF isn't a part of the Ynnari detachment, they retain their battle focus, so you can almost guarantee your ability to make it into rear firing arcs.

Null deployment guarantees your opponent will be able to position themselves and buff their psychic powers in your absence. Do not bet on being able to use those bright lances.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 03:31

@amorrowlyday wrote:

Building on my previous comment: Since we need to fill this detachment with 4 things is better to spam one thing or double up on 2 and send one pair after something (infantry) and another after something else (vehicles)?

I think it's going to depend on the rest of your list. The USF gives us null deployment either way, but it comes at a cost. I'd have to weigh that cost against what I'm NOT getting that I otherwise would, and fill in the gaps.

I'll probably personally take the war walkers most of the time due to being cheaper and giving me a way to clear parking lots ASAP.

Because I'm likely to incorporate them into a null deployment strategy that I build the rest of my army around as well, there will probably be plenty of times where I use them more conservatively than going for rear armour, such as deep striking into ruins to give them a 4+ and/or block LoS just so they can survive and get me to turn 2.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Let's be clear here though, people were complaining about me talking about scatbikes and spiders and what do we have here?

No one was attacking your ability to discuss Eldar stuff in a DE section, that I saw. The only things people have had a problem with is repeatedly pounding it home how "CWE only need X, Y, Z units to be good. Just spam them. Done."

I actually don't have a problem with people suggesting using scatterbikes, or wraithknights, or warp spiders, or any other specific unit. What I had a problem with is the pure contempt you had for people who WOULD run such units, and your lack of respect for them as players, assuming these models just power people through to greatness. They don't, and I would have hoped your experience in trying and failing to use them effectively would have taught you that. Often, lately, your posts are simply oozing with contempt, seemingly designed to attack and spur unfriendly argument, and that is what I take issue with.

CWE have good tools, that isn't in doubt. But that's all they are, and in the current meta, they aren't as powerful as you seemed to believe, and require actual planning and tactics to use effectively against a competent opponent. That's all I've ever been saying, is that choosing the mathematically strongest unit, when looking at that unit in a vacuum simply isn't enough, and there are plenty of other factors that can combined to make a mathematically inferior unit better than the "core 4" eldar picks.

So, what makes scatterbikes that are 3 points more per model good in this case? Perhaps the ability to start in the rear AV10 armour arc of vehicles on turn 1. And I never claimed scatterbikes were bad, only that putting scatter lasers on obsec bikes ran contrary to their greatest strength. In the absence of obsec, there is no reason not to take scatter lasers.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 03:45

Moved topic to correct forum

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 03:55

Quote :
No one was attacking your ability to discuss Eldar stuff in a DE section, that I saw. The only things people have had a problem with is repeatedly pounding it home how "CWE only need X, Y, Z units to be good. Just spam them. Done."

I mean from a list building standpoint yeah that's all that needs to be done. Your ability to run those lists is what determines if you're gonna beat other people running similar lists or not.

Quote :
I actually don't have a problem with people suggesting using scatterbikes, or wraithknights, or warp spiders, or any other specific unit. What I had a problem with is the pure contempt you had for people who WOULD run such units, and your lack of respect for them as players, assuming these models just power people through to greatness. They don't, and I would have hoped your experience in trying and failing to use them effectively would have taught you that. Often, lately, your posts are simply oozing with contempt, seemingly designed to attack and spur unfriendly argument, and that is what I take issue with.

I don't have contempt for the people who run them. Everyone I've played against who's run them has been a great player and a great person. I have contempt for the fact that if you want to stand a chance of placing well you have to run those units. They are not a guarantee of success but you're not likely to succeed without them. Not all scatbike players are winners, but all winning Eldar players use scatbikes. See the difference?

Quote :
CWE have good tools, that isn't in doubt. But that's all they are, and in the current meta, they aren't as powerful as you seemed to believe, and require actual planning and tactics to use effectively against a competent opponent. That's all I've ever been saying, is that choosing the mathematically strongest unit, when looking at that unit in a vacuum simply isn't enough, and there are plenty of other factors that can combined to make a mathematically inferior unit better than the "core 4" eldar picks.

So, what makes scatterbikes that are 3 points more per model good in this case? Perhaps the ability to start in the rear AV10 armour arc of vehicles on turn 1. And I never claimed scatterbikes were bad, only that putting scatter lasers on obsec bikes ran contrary to their greatest strength. In the absence of obsec, there is no reason not to take scatter lasers.

However you wanna slice it. All I see is a whole bunch of people suddenly jumping on the train I was selling tickets to this whole time.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 04:00

I'm sure that they see the difference, what they are talking about is optics. Earlier on you commented that I'm doing exactly what you do and no one says boo, that is also because of optics and for the record I'm just promulgating options. Postulating that something is viable is by no means a guarantee that I will play it. Right now the more variations I can get people to try and comment on, regardless of their skill level, the better because every drop I can glean now amounts to a clearer picture faster.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 04:54

@amorrowlyday I think I see what you're saying.



Kinda like that, eh?

On topic, having yet another delivery vector for scatbikes is nice, but kind of redundant. Null deploying scatbikes was already virtually possible since they have such a long range and good movement, they could cover most of the board by simply repositioning themselves while staying out of enemy firing ranges. Now granted this will allow them to sneaky sneak behind enemy armor... if your opponent is a blockhead. An entirely realistic scenario granted but not an advantage I'd be willing to pay another 9 points per squad for, especially with losing the ability to snatch objectives with ob-sec. Null deployment is also kind of a cats game.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 05:07

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Not all scatbike players are winners, but all winning Eldar players use scatbikes. See the difference?

I see the difference in what you're saying, but it's still wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 05:07

That's very true, and the Ynnari version, probably the worst Jetbike option comparatively and notably the only elite, can do that and then turbo boost away. The only thing lost is the null deploy. I think turn 2 no scatter deep strike and strength from death is better than turn 1 deep strike in most cases though.
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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 05:15

@amorrowlyday wrote:
That's very true, and the Ynnari version, probably the worst Jetbike option comparatively and notably the only elite, can do that and then turbo boost away. The only thing lost is the null deploy. I think turn 2 no scatter deep strike and strength from death is better than turn 1 deep strike in most cases though.

I would agree with this, except where it is your intention to reserve your entire force, then you NEED the 1st turn deep strike, despite it being the lower tier option in all other cases.

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PostSubject: Re: Uthwe Strike Force    Sun Feb 12 2017, 06:00

The Ulthwe bikes also gain Deep Strike, which to my knowledge other jetbikes don't have.
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