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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 18:13

I was going through my Covens book last night, and after reading the rules for the Covenant Coterie I don't think the Visarch can be a part of it. The rules say that only models/units (I don't recall the wording exactly) from the following list are allowed in this detachment. It then goes on to list Urien, Haemonculus, Wracks, Grotesques, Talos, Cronos.

Being able to put him in that detachment would be good, but I don't think that it would work out.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 18:14

ANY.

Even if you have a soft restriction I have a hard override.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 18:29

I don't know... the word "Only" does seem like a hard stop. "Only" vs "Any"
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 18:31

I don't have my book readily available, but is that Only also in reference to Dark Eldar as a faction? I.e. Do the words 'dark eldar' appear in the same sentence or clause that contains the only?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:03

@amorrowlyday wrote:
I don't have my book readily available, but is that Only also in reference to Dark Eldar as a faction? I.e. Do the words 'dark eldar' appear in the same sentence or clause that contains the only?

No, it's just listed under the restrictions for the detachment, in the "restrictions" section.

This is sort of a tough one, though I'd probably say that since the Ynnari book is the more recently published, that it's "Any" overrides any previous "Only". Subsequent campaigns and supplements alter previously established rules. That's what they do, so the more recent rule would take precedent, in my opinion.

That said, I also think that if GW answered a FAQ on this, they'd probably rule the opposite way, because it seems like they obviously have other plans for the covens, since they otherwise excluded them from Ynnari armies.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:08

Agreed on both points though it's a perfect way to represent a Phoenex focused coven lending assistance to the foremost pupils of Ynnead with an eye to usurp their power later
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:35

I have to agree with an earlier post that said the visarch and yvraine should be run together in a full warlock conclave, the amount of wound bouncing is outrageous the CC power is enormous (singing spears on the warlocks) and with a couple psychers on the side (and good rolls) yvraine could get all 12 psychic powers she has access to (if the rest of the unit does) though she would lose psychic focus... However that's a pretty expensive psychic death Star but having two warlord traits (taking yvraine as the army warlord) would make the unit a huge and dangerous target that will absorb a ton of shooting and will almost always guarantee maxed out attacks on the visarch and a full psychic tree for Yvraine every game ...
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:37

Visarch doesn't gain attacks when warlocks die. They are no longer characters in the current codex.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:38

Warlock conclaves aren't psykers. They are a brotherhood of psykers. They only count as a single Psyker, and you won't get ANYTHING until they are all dead, where you MIGHT get 1. I can see an argument against you getting any powers.

So in total between our two comments: That plan is DOA yo.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 19:52

I don't know about that....researching now...this is what the book says:

Rulebook wrote:
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

Due to this, a model dying that is part of a brotherhood of psykers unit is, in fact, a psyker. They just have special rules making them use collective mastery levels and such. Each individual model still counts as a psyker. There are other additional quotes that support that conclusion.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 20:00

But notice that that is entirely unit language. Yvraine doesn't care about units, she cares about models, and nothing, not the Psyker rules, nor the brotherhood of psyker rules or the General psychic subphase section grants us permission to extend psyker privileges down to the model level for a brotherhood.

The only categorical that comes close is Psychic Pilot which uses vehicle language, and while I grant that 'vehicle' is more similar to model then unit due to the existence of squadrons it isn't model.

Tl;DR: a psychic brotherhood unit is a psyker. An individual brother is not because nothing grants permission to treat that model as a psyker, merely as a member of the brotherhood which at large is a psyker with additional rules.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 20:22

It actually does. There are other snippets that talk about a "model" losing a psychic power, and it effecting the psychic powers of the unit as a whole. If a "model" HAS a psychic power to lose, it's a psyker. Wink

They've also clarified that they used model and unit interchangebly in the psyker section, and that things that effect "a psyker" in a brotherhood of psykers only effects 1 model, not the entire unit. Otherwise, things like our old anti-psyker thing that said, "Roll a leadership test for each psyker. Any that fail are removed from play." would remove entire units of brotherhood of psykers from play, but that isn't how GW ruled it. They ruled that brotherhood of psykers rolls 1 test in such a case, and if they fail, 1 model is removed. Since the power says it targets a psyker, and subsequently removes a psyker from play upon failure, if GW rules that you must remove 1 model, that model MUST be a psyker. Very Happy

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Thu Mar 09 2017, 20:25

I reject your first point as an over focus on things with the Psyker USR themselves within the RAW, that overfocus is not incompatible with my macro point.

That second point though is very potent. Enough that I'm going to adopt your position.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 00:52

My bad, I overlooked that warlocks in a warlock conclave are no longer characters ... But reading what BetrayTheWorld has said Yvraine would still get all 12 psychic powers if the whole unit does ... And the visarch is better served elsewhere in a unit of shadowseer and incubi with a klaivex possibly or even with an archon or succubus ... Pretty much any unit with more then one character in it
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 00:57

Best use of the Visarch is a nearby corsair Voidstorm Band with jetpacks and either dual dissonance pistols or a venomblade, everyone is a character can reckless abandon between threats and squishy units They just can't be in the same unit as the Visarch or they won't get reckless abandon and soulburst respectively
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 02:34

@Jimsolo I agreed with the Splintermind podcast when they said that you'll be very eager to take the Visarch as part of a Freakshow list. Would you care to make a statement? Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 09:38

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That said, I also think that if GW answered a FAQ on this, they'd probably rule the opposite way, because it seems like they obviously have other plans for the covens, since they otherwise excluded them from Ynnari armies.

And directly oppose them to Ynnari forces. I'm in no way against a blending between the two but, fluffwise, Vect, the Covens, as well as the mandrakes, are set against the new emissaries of the Elfen god of death.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 16:56

@amorrowlyday wrote:
corsair Voidstorm Band with jetpacks and either dual dissonance pistols or a venomblade

You know dissonance pistols don't work against vehicles, right? (Pretty sure this was a forgeworld fumble, since the vibro-weapons they're based on DO work vs. vehicles.)

@lament.config wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That said, I also think that if GW answered a FAQ on this, they'd probably rule the opposite way, because it seems like they obviously have other plans for the covens, since they otherwise excluded them from Ynnari armies.

And directly oppose them to Ynnari forces. I'm in no way against a blending between the two but, fluffwise, Vect, the Covens, as well as the mandrakes, are set against the new emissaries of the Elfen god of death.

Sort of. GW still made them battle brothers.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 18:43

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@amorrowlyday wrote:
corsair Voidstorm Band with jetpacks and either dual dissonance pistols or a venomblade

You know dissonance pistols don't work against vehicles, right? (Pretty sure this was a forgeworld fumble, since the vibro-weapons they're based on DO work vs. vehicles.)

@lament.config wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That said, I also think that if GW answered a FAQ on this, they'd probably rule the opposite way, because it seems like they obviously have other plans for the covens, since they otherwise excluded them from Ynnari armies.

And directly oppose them to Ynnari forces. I'm in no way against a blending between the two but, fluffwise, Vect, the Covens, as well as the mandrakes, are set against the new emissaries of the Elfen god of death.

Sort of. GW still made them battle brothers.

If anyone tried to argue that Dissonance weapons aren't supposed to work against vehicles for real, as opposed to a RAW technicality, I'd be pretty disgusted with them.

Still, TOs have been known to let such B'S fly, so if you're going to use Dissonance weapons, check with your organizer beforehand.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 18:57

I treat that as rai. The existence of dissonance breach charges as anti building/stationary vehicle weapon with a different version of more or less the same rule but tailored towards anti vehicle sugggests it imo.

I do think your right about all purposes being fluffier tho.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 22:30

Does anyone think there's a merit to putting the Visarch in a squad with a Shimmershield to make up for his lack of an Inv save?

Either Dire Avengers (not so great as they're not really a CC unit), or tagging a Void Dreamer along with him and some killy CC unit (can't Soulburst unfortunately, but might still be useful against an army with a lot of AP3).

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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sat Mar 11 2017, 22:48

Fight against Grey Knights and make him a daemon with fleshbane, armourbane, smash and a 3++ save, according to new Daemonic Adversary rules in Rise of the Primarch.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sun Mar 12 2017, 16:28

I have not investigated those rules; are they optional? How do they work?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sun Mar 12 2017, 21:10

@Jimsolo wrote:

If anyone tried to argue that Dissonance weapons aren't supposed to work against vehicles for real, as opposed to a RAW technicality, I'd be pretty disgusted with them.

The dissonance rule specifically says that it increases strength and lowers AP "to wound". Since vehicles don't take wounds, this buff clearly wouldn't effect them with that wording. While I can make arguments of intent, the RAW wording is clear and indisputable. I've never been allowed by a tournament to utilize dissonance weapons that work versus vehicles.

If I were, I'd be playing primarily corsairs right now.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Fight against Grey Knights and make him a daemon with fleshbane, armourbane, smash and a 3++ save, according to new Daemonic Adversary rules in Rise of the Primarch.

Got a link to where you saw this?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How to use the Visarch   Sun Mar 12 2017, 21:20

Linky

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