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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 04:31

Opponent was Guard/Skitarii at 2000 points. Also The Scouring is an Eternal War mission so we don't use objective cards for that. You'd know this if you played the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 05:15

Can we all stop accusing one another of not being "real" players please? Seems like that's worn out really quickly.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 05:21

If they had similar rules to the Genestealer cult where they could disappear and reappear somewhere on the battlefield would it make sense fluff wise and game wise to have them be able to charge after reappearing? Or maybe make a mêlée attack as they go into reserves ala swooping hawks grenade packs? Maybe after turn 3?

Precision strikes on Guardsmen captains?

Gah I don't have anything else good to add.

5++ on them would be lovely though.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 06:13

I'm relatively certain that the fluff says that they teleport via shadows and that they hack people apart; I don't think it says anything about sitting on objectives.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 06:16

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Opponent was Guard/Skitarii at 2000 points. Also The Scouring is an Eternal War mission so we don't use objective cards for that. You'd know this if you played the game.

I was genuinely asking... and I asked about ITC or cards b.c I didnt know if you added extra rules like in ITC as I said 11pts is a lot.

@Calyptra wrote:
I'm relatively certain that the fluff says that they teleport  via shadows and that they hack people apart; I don't think it says anything about sitting on objectives.

Yeah the fluff I read they come from the shadows and hack as well..... Being as they are they are opposite as to what I've read :/

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 07:10

You guys read it wrong. They do sometimes kill stuff, but usually they are not seen at all. This is because they are hiding in the shadow of an objective.
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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 07:15

@|Meavar wrote:
You guys read it wrong. They do sometimes kill stuff, but usually they are not seen at all. This is because they are hiding in the shadow of an objective.
The obvious way to properly have them work is for each unit of mandrakes you have in reserve, cause d6 unsavable wounds to an enemy unit that's in terrain of some kind, or cause an auto shaken result to vehicles.

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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 10:39

Mandrakes aren't the most useless thing we have but not are they OP.

As for making them better? How about copying the genestealers cults ability?
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 12:38

Of course, the mobility of Mandrakes should be increased. Perhaps through the GSC ability, or just greater movement in general.

Nonetheless, the problem that still exists is that they can't kill enemies in melee and when using their Baleblasts they are left vulnerable.

The general consensus seems to be a "fast, hit and run, melee assassin unit". I could see the following rules:
- Jumpjet infantry (since they are basically teleporting around)
- Hit and Run
- Precision Strike (maybe even an improved version that works on a 5+)
- Better melee weapon (Flickersteel Swords that are either Rending or AP3)

In return, get rid of Stealth, give them a 5++/Daemon and make the Baleblast an optional choice.


Or maybe a unit that specializes in killing enemy characters, similar to the Helliarch in 5th edition. What I mean is a possibility to "abduct" an enemy character (in a challange) and let them vanish in the realm of shadows.

I'd also be in favour of having multiple Mandrake units, each serving a different role.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 12:42

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Today my Mandrakes scored 11 points for me on The Scouring mission by sitting on 2 objectives in ruins and not moving the entire game. 2 units, on a 5 and a 6 objective markers, the absolute madmen. Any other unit would have been primaried off those things so hard they might as well not have been placed on the table, but Mandrakes? "I'm not worried about them right now."

Warp Spiders cannot even compare.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Also The Scouring is an Eternal War mission so we don't use objective cards for that. You'd know this if you played the game.

The scouring mission doesn't have objectives worth more than 4 points...

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 16:48

@Massaen wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Today my Mandrakes scored 11 points for me on The Scouring mission by sitting on 2 objectives in ruins and not moving the entire game. 2 units, on a 5 and a 6 objective markers, the absolute madmen. Any other unit would have been primaried off those things so hard they might as well not have been placed on the table, but Mandrakes? "I'm not worried about them right now."

Warp Spiders cannot even compare.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Also The Scouring is an Eternal War mission so we don't use objective cards for that. You'd know this if you played the game.

The scouring mission doesn't have objectives worth more than 4 points...

Hence why I asked if they were playing ITC or cards.

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 17:29

I think mandrakes are pretty useful as is. Not op, but I love their fluff and see such potential for them.

If I were to give them any one rule change etc, to help them even more, it would be to allow them to move up to 12" in the movement phase, provided they end their move in cover. This is to signify them flitting from shadow to shadow.

Allow then to assault into cover, ignoring the penalties for doing so.

Just my 2 cents
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 18:05

@Faitherun wrote:
I think mandrakes are pretty useful as is.  Not op, but I love their fluff and see such potential for them.

If I were to give them any one rule change etc, to help them even more, it would be to allow them to move up to 12" in the movement phase, provided they end their move in cover. This is to signify them flitting from shadow to shadow.

Allow then to assault into cover, ignoring the penalties for doing so.

Just my 2 cents

Never thought about that, but yes they better ignore terrain for charging.... IDK why they dont to begin with.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Thu Feb 16 2017, 23:27

If Mandrakes were to be included in a formation, what bonuses would be good for them? What would a formation look like that included them?

Archons Hired Retinue
1 Archon (must be included in 1 unit of Incubi or Court of the archon)
0-1 Court of the Archon (must take a transport)
1-3 units of Incubi (must take transports)
1-3 units of mandrakes (may deep strike)

Battle Ready - Units in this formation treat the turn as 1 greater with Power from Pain.

Order in the Court - This Court of the Archon may use the highest Toughness value in the unit without needing a majority of that Toughness.

Personal Guard - Incubi in this formation within 6 inches of the archon may perform LOS, even when not in the same unit. Incubi automatically pass LOS rolls.

Off with their Heads - Nominate a target at the beginning of the game. Mandrakes gain preferred Enemy and precision strikes against that target and the unit it is in. Score d3+1 victory points if mandrakes kill their target.

Thoughts?

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 00:15

The only thing I currently would like to add to this conversation is that, if mandrakes get their own supplement due to the skulltaker forming his new mandrake army before wych cults get fixed, I'm going to be an unhappy hombre.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:18

My Mandrakes won another game for me today by outflanking onto an objective and sitting there all game during a planetary onslaught mission. My opponent tried to deep strike next to them twice, and through their Mandrake magic of sitting there and doing nothing, they scattered off the board both times. One mishapped and I got to place it, the other mishapped and killed itself. Someone has to nerf these things.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:18

I dunno. Both of them are pretty horrible on the TT, and neither really seem as fearsome on the ground as they do in the books. But the Ynnari stuff gives wyches the ability to be a little more killy, and a little faster, and to do so by feeding on the death of those around them, so they're at least a little closer now to the fluff depiction of a wych. Mandrakes, on the other hand, are stealthy-half-demonic-shadow-assassins in the fluff, and glorified turrets in the game. So if we're looking at lore-to-rules comparisons, Mandrakes might be the most in need.
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:33

pfft no. That would be bloodbrides. Followed closely by Hellions. Mandrakes are merely incongruous with their lore identity. on the table they are highly under-rated just like shredders.
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:38

@amorrowlyday wrote:
pfft no. That would be bloodbrides. Followed closely by Hellions. Mandrakes are merely incongruous with their lore identity. on the table they are highly under-rated just like shredders.

Thank you, someone else gets it.
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 01:40

I mean I totally get. I just perfer them to have obsec tho so I take rangers even with the loss of mobility and offensive power. That leads to the rippled changes throughout the rest of my army that causes all of the other disagreements I have with folks on here.
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 03:21

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Mandrakes are merely incongruous with their lore identity

What no? This is literally what I am saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 03:30

I know. I just feel compelled to attack the perceived play aspects you presented in order to head off further wrong headed "Theys jusdt bad" discussion. I will absolutely concede that they don't match the fluff in the manner you're suggesting, and I expect that GW recognizes this as well and intends to do a full unit rewrite, possibly creating variants a la portions of the Sylvaneth line. As is I don't know what I'd want besides a 5++ as I've stated, I've more or less refrained from dealing with that portion of the discussion. We're in an unfortunate place in game where if GW can't throw 1-2 common USR's onto something in order to fix it they'll give it 2 complex new ones rather than buff stats or stack USRs, and when they do that the resulting product is worlds apart from anything we could have expected.
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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 07:34

@TeenageAngst
Does none of the spacemarine players in your club know about flamers? Because everytime I have fielded mandrakes they get flamed. Everytime. Hard. And then there's Tau with ignores cover and smart missiles. The only thing I have managed to do with mandrakes is to distract my opponents from flaming a venom for a round. Another problem with mandrakes is that they do not have obsec vs. CAD troops, so my opponents usually just divert a troop transport to the objective they are sitting at, burn them to a crisp and seize the objective if they need it. If your opponent has a strengthy ignores cover weapon, mandrakes becomes an easy first blood target.

Ps. I'm very salty about flamers.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 07:39

That's the beauty of Mandrakes, they're so flexible. Does my opponent have flamers? If so, I outflank them and make him walk those flamers over to them to get them off an objective. Or perhaps I keep them behind my lines and force him to shoot through my entire army to get a charge or template on the Mandrakes. Also if the opponent is flaming Mandrakes instead of a Venom they are doing their job because you could have almost anything in that Venom and it will be worth more than the Mandrakes he's flaming instead.

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PostSubject: Re: Making mandrakes match the fluff   Fri Feb 17 2017, 07:57

The problem is that mandrakes fulfil nothing that another choice in the codex doesn't do better. I almost never end up using my elite slots purely because troops, heavy and fast are far more useful and effective.

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