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 Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Mon Feb 20 2017, 01:34

It doesnt matter how often you can do, all that matter is its an addition option to do, the more tricks you have and options you can do the better you are in more situations.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Mon Feb 20 2017, 01:36

Sort of *Evil Grin*

Wraiths, jetbikes, and jetpacks, and I think we're the only ones with good jetpack CC units anyway, can always. Jump units can only do so if they didn't opt to use their jump move in the movement phase. I beat like 10 different grey knights players in 2015 because they don't actually understand how jump units work and play the dreadknight wrong, and once you've pulled a grey knights teeth out dealing with their force spam is trivial.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Mon Feb 20 2017, 21:40

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Mononcule wrote:
@lessthanjeff wrote:
Not sure if you guys already realized this or not, but a unit of scat bikes or reavers can easily soulburt out in front of units that are about to be charged to block the enemies since they weren't the target of the shooting attack.

Wow! Small units of reavers were my favorite DE units, now they just become even better!

How often will this be possible to do, though, really? I mean, a unit within 7 inches of the jetbike has to die first, which isn't necessary if your opponent is targetting units further away from your bikes for shooting and assault.

And when you ARE able to do it, are you really going to WANT to. With the costs of reavers and scatterbikes, they seem like poor candidates to use for chaff, and the only time they could pull it off would be in the shooting phase. Which means they could be jumping in front of 1 unit that could charge, only to be jumping within shooting and assault range of another enemy unit.

So basically the limited circumstance where this would be useful is to block assaults from a unit that was going to be charging through a narrow gap to begin with, that fired already this turn, and who doesn't have any other units nearby that have yet to fire this turn and/or would be capable of assaulting your jetbikes.

Or am I missing something?

The lists I've been testing with I've been keeping my units in clusters of a sort so pretty much any unit that dies gives me a couple units to choose to proc. You're right that you might not want to do it with the first unit that is lost to shooting, but if they've already gone through most of their shooting phase it becomes pretty safe to do.

Even if it doesn't completely block the charge of the enemy unit, you can easily add 5-6 inches to their charge range which often prevents them from even wanting to endure the overwatch. Units like jump packs and wraiths don't matter if you're jumping your bikes around your units so that they couldn't be placed in between.

To your other question, I also tried swooping hawks. I still think it's a solid unit to incorporate, but they haven't accomplished much for me yet. Granted, I was seized on by a tau list that immediately wasted my wraithknight, most of my hawks, and some bikes. When they did come back with grenade packs to hit markerlight drones, they were no longer large blasts and they were intercepted to death. The warp spiders and scat bikes did much more work for me, but I think they will have important roles to fill against other lists.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Mon Feb 20 2017, 21:46

How many units of hawks did you have? I imagine that they'd be similar to reavers, in that they're significantly better when you have a larger number of them. Also, did you take them in an aspect host for the BS5 shooting?

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 00:53

I only had one squad since I was testing a couple different units in fast attack slots before buying more. They weren't in an aspect host either since I had those slots filled with warp spiders and dark reapers. The BS didn't matter as they never got to fire a single shot anyway though.

Right now the impression I'm getting is they'd be like haywire scourges, great in some matches but fairly inconsequential in others. I'm going to get some more testing with them in this week.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:17

The number and how you run them is important to getting the desired effect out of them. I could easily see them being viewed as unimpressive if played in certain ways, or with non-flexible loadouts.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:30

With Pure DE I love HWB Scourges with Ynarri I would do HL's

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:48

Another thing you can do, IDK if its been said.

Have a warlock (Just 1) sitting behind a WK (Melee or shooting or w.e you want) use MANY warp dice to force a perils (daemonology to do this easily). Kill off your Warlock from Perils and you just now triggered soulburst actions.

You could have 2 WK's with 2 solo Warlocks to make sure it goes off, having a Farseer x2 also to guide each WK 1st. Now you have 2 WK that can shoot in the Psychic phase and once in the shooting

Or a melee Knight that can move 2x (24") if it was on the line with a charge you should be able to get a turn 1 charge.

Just food for thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 01:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
Have a warlock (Just 1) sitting behind a WK (Melee or shooting or w.e you want) use MANY warp dice to force a perils (daemonology to do this easily). Kill off your Warlock from Perils and you just now triggered soulburst actions.

Bonus: have Yvraine around to get a +1ML and extra power.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 02:11

Oh lord, double shooting Heat Lance Scourge would do wonders on a Guard Parking Lot

@Betray do you think Scourges or Swooping Hawks would be better to take en masse with soulburst in play?

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 02:14

@Logan Frost wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Have a warlock (Just 1) sitting behind a WK (Melee or shooting or w.e you want) use MANY warp dice to force a perils (daemonology to do this easily). Kill off your Warlock from Perils and you just now triggered soulburst actions.

Bonus: have Yvraine around to get a +1ML and extra power.

lol.

@Barrywise wrote:
Oh lord, double shooting Heat Lance Scourge would do wonders on a Guard Parking Lot

@Betray do you think Scourges or Swooping Hawks would be better to take en masse with soulburst in play?

If you need AT vs Parking lots I'd say scourges are better

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 17:34

@Barrywise wrote:
Oh lord, double shooting Heat Lance Scourge would do wonders on a Guard Parking Lot

@Betray do you think Scourges or Swooping Hawks would be better to take en masse with soulburst in play?

I think swooping hawks would be better due to their flexibility. They're not as good as scourges at killing vehicles, but unlike scourges, they'll never scatter if you use them in a null deployment strategy, and they're decent enough at killing BOTH vehicles and infantry. And with soulburst allowing you to do alternate things in place of movement/shooting, such as turbo-boosting and such, it should allow for some pretty interesting rapid-redeployment tricks with skyleap. They kill a unit in one corner of the table, triggering soulburst which they use to skyleap off the table, then they're guaranteed to come back on via scatterless deep strike the following turn with a grenade pack attack, and shooting attack, either of which could trigger more soulburst actions.

If you outfit them like I suggested, they're also pretty excellent melee troops, being able to assault across up to 30" naturally per turn, or 48" with a soulburst action. Imagine that....assaulting your opponent's table edge on turn 1. Glooooooooooooooooorious! Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:46

I agree that hawks will be strictly better than scourges. I'm inclined to run two units in my list but I still wanted to test reavers before committing and buying more hawks. I didn't think to give them power lances though, you're right that it will give them some nice punch. I'll try that when I do my next test game.

I'm not putting them into an aspect host since ITC only allows one duplicate formation and I'm inclined to prioritize those slots for warp spiders and dark reapers whose shooting is more important to me. They are nice swiss army knives, they just couldn't do anything in my game against Tau. I think they'll do much better against most other opponents and they provide some solid anti air while still contributing to objectives on the ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 18:55

You can mix and match units in an aspect host. They don't all have to be the same aspect.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Tue Feb 21 2017, 19:09

Yeah, I know mixing and matching is allowed, but the warp spiders and dark reapers did great work for me and I think they'll be more consistent threats in games. They deal with a lot of the units I'm most afraid of while as of now the hawks I just see as being nice in some matchups.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 02:47

If a unit with Split Fire (Lets say a SM unit with a ML) shoots and kills a unit (Split fire must be done 1st and must be fully resolved before the other uniting attacks), could you then Soulburst to stop the rest of the unit from shooting? aka shoot/charge them.

This is an extremely odd situation, but it is something that is fun to think about.


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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 08:25

I have two big questions that I need to be answered. Since it's very important to me that I don't play the rules wrong to gain an unfair advantage, even if I didn't know better. I only have the german rulebook, so apologies if I can not give you the exact page number. But hopefully you can help me here:

Both are Soulburst related:

1. Can I Soulburst a unit after its transport has been killed?

RAW:
- If the transport is wrecked I think the answer is yes. Because on how the transport section of the rulebook is written. The last sentence, after all the models have been placed, says that "then the vehicle is a wreck". Meaning that the models are on the table, when the transport actually dies.

- If the transport explodes I would say no. Because in the description on how to handle explosions on transports, the models are placed after the transport is removed.

RAI:
- Honestly, no idea. Could be both.


2. Can I Soulburst the unit that just wiped another unit in close combat?

RAW:
- When the unit is wiped during close combat:
It's actually pretty unclear. The rules clearly allow the close combat to end before the whole close combat phase ends. Because if after the pile in move units are not base to base anymore, the combat ends. But it says nothing what happens if you completely kill a unit. And if it does, at which initiative step does the combat end? After the attacking unit wiped the other or at the others initiative step, because it couldn't get back into base contact (it's dead Razz )
You do your consolidation move and this means that you are no longer in combat. The question is, does soulburst activate at the right time to use it? Can anyone find anything in the rulebook to support one side of the argument?

- When the unit is caught while fleeing close combat:
After sweeping advances you are no longer locked in combat so it should be possible to use the Soulburst action.

RAI:
- How the Souburst rule in GSII is written encourages to think that you should be able to use souburst after killing a unit in close combat. Furthermore the close combat rule does set a precedent that close combat can be ended earlier than the end of the phase (if after pile in no base to base contact it ends.)

So what do you all think? Can you find proof in the rulebook that supports either side of the arguments?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 09:15

@Weidekuh wrote:
2. Can I Soulburst the unit that just wiped another unit in close combat?

RAW:
- When the unit is wiped during close combat:
It's actually pretty unclear. The rules clearly allow the close combat to end before the whole close combat phase ends. Because if after the pile in move units are not base to base anymore, the combat ends. But it says nothing what happens if you completely kill a unit. And if it does, at which initiative step does the combat end? After the attacking unit wiped the other or at the others initiative step, because it couldn't get back into base contact (it's dead Razz )
You do your consolidation move and this means that you are no longer in combat. The question is, does soulburst activate at the right time to use it? Can anyone find anything in the rulebook to support one side of the argument?

- When the unit is caught while fleeing close combat:
After sweeping advances you are no longer locked in combat so it should be possible to use the Soulburst action.

RAI:
- How the Souburst rule in GSII is written encourages to think that you should be able to use souburst after killing a unit in close combat. Furthermore the close combat rule does set a precedent that close combat can be ended earlier than the end of the phase (if after pile in no base to base contact it ends.)

So what do you all think? Can you find proof in the rulebook that supports either side of the arguments?

Been discussed at some length here. As I said in that thread, the end of the combat occurs after all applicable initiative steps have been completed (which is the point that Soulburst would need to trigger if you’ve wiped out the enemy unit), assault results have been calculated, morale has been checked, sweeping advances made and the end of combat pile in has been done. At that stage you get to consolidate if you are no longer locked in combat but you have lost the opportunity to take a Soulburst action.

TLDR; RAW you can't charge another unit when you wipe out your opponent in close combat as you're still locked in combat when that happens and you can't pick a unit that is locked in combat to take a Soulburst action. RAI I suspect GW doesn't know how its rules actually work and probably intended you to be able to do so.

It's included in the FAQ's that I've sent to GW and I encourage others to send them off too. Find them here

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 09:33

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Weidekuh wrote:
2. Can I Soulburst the unit that just wiped another unit in close combat?

RAW:
- When the unit is wiped during close combat:
It's actually pretty unclear. The rules clearly allow the close combat to end before the whole close combat phase ends. Because if after the pile in move units are not base to base anymore, the combat ends. But it says nothing what happens if you completely kill a unit. And if it does, at which initiative step does the combat end? After the attacking unit wiped the other or at the others initiative step, because it couldn't get back into base contact (it's dead Razz )
You do your consolidation move and this means that you are no longer in combat. The question is, does soulburst activate at the right time to use it? Can anyone find anything in the rulebook to support one side of the argument?

- When the unit is caught while fleeing close combat:
After sweeping advances you are no longer locked in combat so it should be possible to use the Soulburst action.

RAI:
- How the Souburst rule in GSII is written encourages to think that you should be able to use souburst after killing a unit in close combat. Furthermore the close combat rule does set a precedent that close combat can be ended earlier than the end of the phase (if after pile in no base to base contact it ends.)

So what do you all think? Can you find proof in the rulebook that supports either side of the arguments?

Been discussed at some length here. As I said in that thread, the end of the combat occurs after all applicable initiative steps have been completed (which is the point that Soulburst would need to trigger if you’ve wiped out the enemy unit), assault results have been calculated, morale has been checked, sweeping advances made and the end of combat pile in has been done. At that stage you get to consolidate if you are no longer locked in combat but you have lost the opportunity to take a Soulburst action.

TLDR; RAW you can't charge another unit when you wipe out your opponent in close combat as you're still locked in combat when that happens and you can't pick a unit that is locked in combat to take a Soulburst action. RAI I suspect GW doesn't know how its rules actually work and probably intended you to be able to do so.

It's included in the FAQ's that I've sent to GW and I encourage others to send them off too. Find them here

1) The BRB RAW says you Disembark THEN the vehicle is destroyed
2) You can charge another unit after you kill a unit in CC b.c you are not lock in combat


Page 53: Consolidation "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in move was insufficient so that it is no longer "locked in combat", that unit my consolidate.

Going back to page 47 : Locked in Combat "If a unit had one or more models in base contact with an enemy unit, then it is locked in combat"

Now reading the "assault phase"
1. choose a combat
2. fight close combat
3. determine assault results
4. choose next combat or finish assault phase

If you look at it all, you dont finish assault phase until all combats has been resulted and you no longer can choose another combat.

B.c you Determine assault results before the phase is over, after you determine assault result you consolidate, consolidate says you are no longer locked in combat.

So all I am 100% sure the rules are saying you can make 2 charges a turn.

My local read it this way too and we are playing it this way. Honestly talk to you local members.

Edit: I know we dont want to start this again, but I didnt see anyone talking about all the details.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 09:47

That only proves that you are no longer locked in combat when you consolidate, which I acknowledged already. It doesn't do anything to show that you are not locked in combat at any point prior to the consolidate step, and indeed the rules very clearly demonstrate that you are. You would need to be not locked in combat at the end of the initiative step in which you wipe out your opponent, which is long before the consolidate step.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 10:51

@amishprn86 wrote:
If a unit with Split Fire (Lets say a SM unit with a ML) shoots and kills a unit (Split fire must be done 1st and must be fully resolved before the other uniting attacks), could you then Soulburst to stop the rest of the unit from shooting? aka shoot/charge them.

This is an extremely odd situation, but it is something that is fun to think about.

This is as you said, an odd situation and definitely something to think about. I suppose it depends on the wording of the rules for split fire. Do the models in the split firing unit fire simultaneously and you resolve the first shot before the rest, or does the split firing model fire "before" the rest of the unit. If the latter, then yes I would suggest that would work!
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 11:14

I thought I looked through the forum but didnt find anything. Anyway, thanks. I'll check the other thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 11:32

Interesting tactic that I used a few times before but might be even more effective with Ynnari. If you charge a unit that is already falling back, that unit has to take a Ld test. If it fails, it is removed at the end of the charge sub-phase. This can be accomplished using a Soulburst action as it doesn't rely on actually fighting the combat in the Fight sub-phase. Combine this with some Freakshow Leadership shenanigans and you can potentially wipe out any non-Fearless unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Wed Feb 22 2017, 12:54

@Count Adhemar best case scenario: two death jesters shoot at two enemy units which both fail the tests and you pull them both to within charge range. Charge one unit which then fails its test, resulting in a Soulburst action which enables you to charge the second unit and wipe it out also!
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Thu Feb 23 2017, 04:30

@Vlad wrote:
@Count Adhemar best case scenario: two death jesters shoot at two enemy units which both fail the tests and you pull them both to within charge range. Charge one unit which then fails its test, resulting in a Soulburst action which enables you to charge the second unit and wipe it out also!

That would be highly situational, but consequently soooo gratifying Twisted Evil

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