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 Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 06:47

@BetrayTheWorld That's why I'm giving you this opportunity to give me some insight.

While we're waiting however, I will admit there are different ways of running Ynnari lists that jump out at me that don't involve the traditional CWE spider/scatbike spam and look fun. They're not going to win tournaments probably, but they're gonna be fun. Here's something I cooked up:

2x that Ynnari not-CAD but basically is a CAD:

4x single Llhameans in Venoms w/Splinter Cannons

12x 3-man Windriders

6x 3-man Mandrake squads idk clowns I guess

6x single Khymeras

2x Vaul's Wrath Support Battery w/ 3 Dissonance or Vibro Cannons to taste

1x ye olde Jetseer Council

No Wraithknight, no Spiders, no scatbikes. This list operates on the same assumption of my previous Dark Eldar MSU but with greater advantages. Your Vaul's Wrath means you can null deploy, even without a VSG, and not have to worry about getting blown off the board. Your small disposable units are lethal en masse and present no obvious targets. Any of them dying, and they will die as they are going to need to be close to be effective and are designed to do such, are going to proc extra moving/shooting/charges. The Seer Council is self contained, it can protect itself and can handle almost any threat you smaller dudes can't. Knight Titans, GMC, death stars, you name it. This list is a target priority nightmare as killing anything is going to be met with a punishment and there is so much that has to die.

You can null deploy, or you can start with everyone on the board for absolute board dominance. Twin-linked shuriken catapults are nothing to sneeze at themselves, and of course you'll have artillery firing off all game. And since most of your army enjoys being close to the enemy all those enemy deaths will pile up to mean even more special rules procs.

edit: Apparently Mandrakes aren't Ynnari legal for some reason.


Last edited by TeenageAngst on Sat Feb 11 2017, 07:22; edited 1 time in total
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 06:53

Why wouldn't beast packs benefit from soulburst? And would you mind citing something if you think it's "obvious" when it's calculated? In other meta-detachments that isn't the case.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 07:11

Can You describe which are ynnead and which units are not? Because mandrakes unfortunately are not ynniead I think?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 07:12

Any unit taken in a ynnari formation or detachment is ynnari.

You are correct there are no ways to take mandrakes as ynnari units.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 07:15

Wait those aren't allowed? That's one hell of a cherry pick O_o they're not even covens units.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 07:18

Agreed. they even have a prominent role in the fluff. They are on my chaffe secondary tho. Hopefully that means they will have a prominent subculture in the post 8th world rather than being eliminated.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 08:53

Please remember to keep things civil - there are a number of posts which are sitting right on the border of breaking forum rules. Warnings will be issued if people can't play nice

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 10:15

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld you're using Dark Eldar tactics for an army that doesn't need them. The Dark Eldar rely on bold moves and things maybe happening because that's what they need to win, miracles. Ynnari are using CWE tactics taken to the next level, and the CWE operate on attrition. You have the statistical leverage when you set up on the board against most match ups, all you need to do is position yourself throughout the game to take advantage of that. Your strategy means that one or two shoddy dice rolls could end the magical chain of events that was supposed to see your army shooting twice all game. CWE can weather an entire turn of bad dice if they have to. They don't need gambles or maybes, they have guarantees.

pretty much, but not to that extreme.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 11:49

I just realised that units in a reborn warhost are of the Ynnari faction IN ADDITION of their faction.

So this means I can take 2 shadowseers and 2 FA Ynnari raiders, and then put the ss and grotesquerie in it as the raider is both DE and Ynnari. Sure you dont get SfD bonus, but the grotesquerie is a solid formation with its own rules that synergise well with a cheap Ld10/H&R/high Ini leader. The ss isnt bad in assault either.

Scalpel squadron: you can deploy them in a way that if they get destroyed the Yncarne can charge at your following turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 12:03

While you do indeed gain a faction and retain your original one - the grots are not faction ynnari at all so would follow the allies rules layer out at the start of the ynnari faction rules... They are BB... So can't start embarked

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 12:20

Huh, but I remember reading that in a Ynnari army the units retain their previous faction as well as gaining the 'Ynnari' faction.

Definitely need clarification on that, but that would mean that because the Ynnari Raider is also Dark Eldar, the Dark Eldar Grots would be able to start boarded...

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 12:28

So what would be the point in saying that CWE, DE and EH are all battle brothers then?

The only reason for that would be if there were some limitations to the way they interact outside of them being in different detachments.

There is a difference between a faction DE model and a faction DE/Ynnari model - or at leats its implied... and assuming its from a different non Ynnari detachment.

This is a massive grey area in in the rules as to my knowledge we have never had models with more than 1 faction before. Its literally never been taken into account.

It also raises the question of can a unit of Wraitguard Ynnari start the game embarked on a Raider Ynnari?

Both are faction Ynnari but they also have different factions (CWE vs DE). How does that play out?

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 12:56

The more I think about it, the more I think that double-faction thing needs to be double-checked. Not certain I've got that right.

If it is, then the fact they're Battle Brothers is probably to prevent odd situations where psychic buffs can't affect Covens units or something.

If they are double-faction, then it would seem that a Ynnari/Covens combo is the ideal way for me to play my exodites Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 14:11

From the FAQ:

"Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment? A: Yes."

"Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment? A: No."

The question are:
Is a Dark eldar grotesque can be delployed embark in a dark eldar + Ynnari raider?

If not, i guess even in the same detachment we cannot mix unit, for example a harlequin+ynnari death jester cannot embark in a dark eldar+ynnari raider... that would be a shame
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 14:15

Ynnari units are absolutely double faction. (Ones chosen from your codexes, at any rate.)

The three new Ynnari units, however, are just Ynnari, and have no faction beyond that, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 14:29

RAW i'd say that the Grots can get in the Ynnari raider then as they are both Dark Eldar faction.

The only way it could be lrevented is by extending the reach of 'faction' to mean that 'ynnari/craftworld' is different to 'ynnari/deldar'.

Worth FAQ-ing...

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 15:01

So... If you bring the visarch as part of a DE CAD, can the Visarch start in a Raider with a squad? (say kabalites). The Visarch retains the Ynnari faction, but is built as part of a DE army..
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 15:09

I would go even further:

if a grotesque cannot start the game embarked in a DE+Ynnari raider because he lacks the ynnari faction,

then Yvraine and Visarch cannot start the game in ANY transport, even ynnari ones, because all ynnari transports are also DE, CWE or Harlequin.

So I would say you can start the game in a transport that share a faction with you, it doesnt matter if you or the transport have a second faction.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 15:29

Yeah, they weren't given the "battle brothers" rules to prevent starting in transports. It's for all of the other interactions that occur between models when taken from a different CAD. Every faction is considered "battle brothers" to itself, as per the BRB too. And as an exception to the typical ruling that you may not start on battle brothers transports, that doesn't apply if you share the same faction as said battle brother.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld That's why I'm giving you this opportunity to give me some insight.

You're "giving me this opportunity"? Don't do me any favors, pal. Look, it's clear you're not asking for my advice because you want it, but rather to debate and try to be derisive of my opinions, with which your main tool for countering will be to argue the same old, same old. I'm not interested in that. So if you're looking for a public argument, you will not find that from me. If you ACTUALLY want assistance later, after you've had time to reconsider your position(meaning NOT now), then you can PM me and I'll help you privately. We're not going to make a public spectacle of this.

As for your posted list: I don't think it will work. You don't really have any teeth, and no obsec. So you won't really be able to kill things off of objectives, OR contest them with obsec. So, in ITC or any other major tournament format that uses a combination of maelstrom style scoring and eternal war, you would likely end up in an insurmountable points deficit by the later rounds, leaving you with only the possibility of tabling your opponent to win, and you wouldn't really be able to do so because the models you're taking don't really kill things that effectively.

Barebones windriders aren't that great if they don't have obsec, even if they get to fire twice. And a basic jetseer council is OK, but can often be ignored(where it will often struggle to earn it's points back in kills), or possibly killed if your opponent is using a more robust deathstar.

Also, vibro cannons aren't great if not taking a farseer to twin-link them. Vibro is also distinctly different from dissonance weapons, in that dissonance weapons don't trigger their buffs against vehicles.

The list is also basically forfeiting any match that uses killpoints.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 16:02

Talking about double detachments:
If a unit dies within 7" from one or more units, one per detachment can soulburst.
If two units from different ynnari detachments are within 7 can they both soulburst?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 16:08

@Logan Frost wrote:
Talking about double detachments:
If a unit dies within 7" from one or more units, one per detachment can soulburst.
If two units from different ynnari detachments are within 7 can they both soulburst?

Nothing says one per detachment that I can see, so it would likely apply just like other army rules, and just be army-wide instead of detachment-specific. The 7" thing isn't a detachment rule, it's an army rule, like power from pain, battle focus, or the chaos storm thing.

You don't roll on the chaos table each turn for each detachment you have from chaos, just once per turn, regardless of the number of chaos detachments. The same logic would apply here.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 16:55

Quote :

As for your posted list: I don't think it will work. You don't really have any teeth

I know, the lack of Mandrakes really kills the effectiveness of it. I think it needs to be redesigned from the ground up without them.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 18:06

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Yeah, they weren't given the "battle brothers" rules to prevent starting in transports. It's for all of the other interactions that occur between models when taken from a different CAD. Every faction is considered "battle brothers" to itself, as per the BRB too. And as an exception to the typical ruling that you may not start on battle brothers transports, that doesn't apply if you share the same faction as said battle brother.

You can't know the intent at all.

You are also wrong - you are never BB with yourself. You only look at allies when you are a different faction. It's why you can start on a transport from a different detachment which has the same faction. It's in the brb this way and has been like this since day 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 18:16

That's actually NOT RAW massaen and has been disputed as such in the rules sub in the past. It only became an issue after GW's also non-raw ruling on battle brothers in transports. This is why the final version of the FAQ stipulates that a unit may begin the game embarked in another detachment, with the same faction, transport.

Either way that person is still wrong as just like the unit with an attached IC example that the unit happens to have 1 of the necessary factions is irrelevant, it still has multiple factions which aren't identical and is thus causing a battle brothers relationship between the 2 units.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 18:36

It's 100% raw - it's very clear in the rule book and the FAQ makes it clearer

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