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 Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 00:48

Since the full rules have been leaked here: Full Rules, I thought I'd survey the public to see what your initial impressions are of how to best utilize the new rules. Any tactics or ideas immediately spring to mind?

Let's start with a quick synopsis that answers some of the questions people had when we only had partial rules:

1. Ynnari will be able to duplicate actions in a turn with soulburst actions, but won't be able to override other restrictions that prevent an action, such as deep striking preventing charges.
2. Ynnari can NOT be taken in a CAD. The only 2 ways to play Ynnari is to take the Reborn warhost, or individual ynnari formations.

Let me know if anything else should be added to the synopsis and I'll edit this post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, my initial impressions:

The reborn warhost obviously makes it easier to field synergy-based things like freakshow lists, and the power from death rule allows for some interesting chaining of abilities together, mostly seeming to benefit shooting units the most. The artifacts list is a bit of a disappointment, in my opinion, though I HAVE considered throwing a couple of those artifacts on a Solitaire for the lulz.

Solitaire + It will not die & feel no pain....solitaire with blind and counter-attack...solitaire that regains wounds on a 4+ any time a model dies...all pretty lulzy. Not sure it'll be worth the points or not though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also noticed there is an army rule with the potential to be contentious. The "Strength from death" rule specifies that it can, itself, trigger a soulburst action if a non-vehicle unit with the special rule is within 7" of another unit that dies, then goes on to tell what soulburst actions are.

The strength from death rule doesn't trigger on vehicles, however, vehicles still HAVE the strength from death rule by being a part of the army, and a DIFFERENT special rule from the reborn warhost called "warhost of ynnead" actually grants a unit with the "Strength from death" rule permission to make a soulburst action without the 7" or "Non-vehicle" limitations. Instead, it allows you to CHOOSE a unit to take a soulburst action whenever a unit dies, in ADDITION to the normal one that is triggered if within 7 inches, with the qualifier that the detachment must include at least 7 units for you to get to make said choice.

Now, as I said, it's contentious. It could be interpreted to have to follow the normal rules for triggering it, but that isn't what the formation rule says. It clearly states that you may select a unit to perform a soulburst action, and fails to mention any associated restrictions whatsoever.

I think it would be pretty difficult for someone to win the argument against it working on vehicles, however, since the psychic power that grants a soulburst action sets a precedent for special things granting soulburst actions to vehicles, since it doesn't limit targets to non-vehicle units either, and it also works at longer ranges than otherwise available.

What are your thoughts? Noticed anything interesting we haven't covered?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:07

@Betraytheworld, you beat me to this post. Curses!

I would like to make a list of DE units who just became more viable, based on the boost from Power from Death (or w/e its called).

Shooting requires the unit to be on the board and not a vehicle. I see these units as:
-Scourges
-Beastmasters (surprisingly great value for their points in shooting)
-Medusae (highly situational, but possibly worth the pre-planning)

Movement/Assault (both seem to apply to these units):
-Reavers
-Beast squads
-Hellions

Then we have semi-sacrificial units who can cause these soulbursts (units that dont like riding in transports)
-Beast squads
-Hellions
-Reavers
-Scourges

I think this pretty much sums up what units DE can make work with these new rules. Luckily most of these units were already in our lists, so playing around with them shouldent be very hard. And this doesnt take into account the buff of having a 60 pt shadowseer with automatic Veil in our squads granting HaR!

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:17

As I've already said, the best way to run this would be the traditional CWE MSU list. The D-Cannon WK would be the obvious choice, though for ITC the sword and board might be more useful assuming you plan to use it as a wrecking ball rather than a distraction carnifex. Other possibilities include using Wraithblades with a Shadowseer and Spiritseer escort, using Striking Scorpions in an Aspect Host and using their inevitable deaths to hopefully trigger some usefulness out of them, or running some kind of clownstar with the special characters.

Major weaknesses are obviously their lack of ob-sec which unfortunately culminates in their existing weaknesses only being exacerbated. Corrupted objectives by the Khornedog Screamer lists are going to be all but impossible to bust up as both armies are fast and one is considerably more numerous than the other. The best you can hope for is using extra actions to maneuver out of the way of enemy forces' charges. This list being run with Slaaneshi Daemons is even more scary because now you have very fast units that can corrupt objectives and all have rending, meaning if you aren't playing a very intense shoot and scoot game you are not only going to be caught in close combat but worked over in short order. The lack of Haemonculus Covens units means the typical counter of Grotesques is not on the table unless you plan on bringing Dark Eldar as an ally.

Tripartite Lances will also be an issue since no amount of extra actions is really going to get you through that brick wall of a defense. A Seer Council would be your best bet here and then only with careful application of psychic powers, and the lack of ob-sec means the knights can straddle objectives all they want and deny all game.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:23

Well yeah, I sort of anticipate that bringing allies to fill in the obsec is going to be a given for most people. It doesn't cost much to open up the availability of obsec troops, either through DE or CWE.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:26

It would necessitate a paired and almost identically mirrored formation of Ynnari and CWE then, running them in pairs. Assuming soulburst procs off of non-Ynnari deaths, then you would run an ob-sec bike squad with a soulbursting one. Kill the soulbursting one, the obsec is still on the objective. Kill the obsec, and you get shot. It's a cat's game. Spiders and the WK of course could safely stay Ynnari since they're not obsec anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:49

I disagree. Identical CWE and Ynnari CAD/RWH is not the optimal way to abuse this because anything killy enough that I actually care about soulbursting it I do not want to field identically in a CAD as I simply will not have enough soulburst triggers when the points are finally set. 162 pts per pair of Scatbikes is not optimal.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 02:19

Soulburst is a bonus, not an end to itself. If you want to run 6 units of scatbikes, you run 3 in the Ynnadi and 3 in the CWE CAD and you pair them up as though they were 6 man squads. If you want to run 10 scatbike units and a Seer Council, you run 5 Ynnadi and 5 CWE and pair them up the same way. Your opponent being forced to choose between not getting shot at or getting shot at and removing the obsec is the last thing anyone wants to have to decide when shooting scatbikes is already a difficult task to begin with. This rule in a CWE list is not going to win games by letting you get extra shots, it's going to win you games by forcing your opponent to make decisions and the more of those they have to make the greater the chances they're going to make bad ones.

As I've said a thousand times, if I had a list that only works when my opponent is an idiot I'd run it every time. Well here it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 02:27

See that's the difference right there: My goal is to spearfish competent players, but I absolutely take your point and is probably the first advice anyone who is uncomfortable with list building should be told.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 02:34

My initial thought is a "Freakstar:" a single large unit (probably a Seer Council) with additional hangers-on such as an HQ with the Armor of Misery (probably with a WWP), an HQ with the Mask of Secrets, etc. (I'm thinking Seer Council plus Shadowseer plus Archon/Succubus plus either the Visarch, another Farseer, or an Autarch with a Banshee Mask.) Then Scatterbikes all the way down, after that.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 02:46

Quote :
See that's the difference right there: My goal is to spearfish competent players, but I absolutely take your point and is probably the first advice anyone who is uncomfortable with list building should be told.

Even good players can get bowled over by having to make decisions. Several times during my games at HITNY I ended up confounding people who'd played the game and even the army for years longer than I had by forcing them to make choices they didn't want to make:

"I'm gonna cast Misfortune on the Wraithknight."

*opponent throws all their dice* "Okay, it's denied."

"Alright, now I'm going to cast Doom on the Wraithknight."

*LOOK OF ABSOLUTE HORROR AND FURY*

As for out-playing them, good players are just that, good players. Smoke in mirrors is not how you win with those people, they know the tricks. What you need is equal parts brute force and cunning. This army adds a little brute force and a lot of cunning.

Quote :
My initial thought is a "Freakstar:" a single large unit (probably a Seer Council) with additional hangers-on such as an HQ with the Armor of Misery (probably with a WWP), an HQ with the Mask of Secrets, etc. (I'm thinking Seer Council plus Shadowseer plus Archon/Succubus plus either the Visarch, another Farseer, or an Autarch with a Banshee Mask.) Then Scatterbikes all the way down, after that.

Too many footsloggers is going to slow the Seer Council down, or worse, stretch it out so much that it can't get all its witchblades into the first round of combat. The only reason people run it with Baharoth is he's able to move more than 6" in the movement phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 02:56

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Soulburst is a bonus, not an end to itself. If you want to run 6 units of scatbikes, you run 3 in the Ynnadi and 3 in the CWE CAD and you pair them up as though they were 6 man squads. If you want to run 10 scatbike units and a Seer Council, you run 5 Ynnadi and 5 CWE and pair them up the same way. Your opponent being forced to choose between not getting shot at or getting shot at and removing the obsec is the last thing anyone wants to have to decide when shooting scatbikes is already a difficult task to begin with. This rule in a CWE list is not going to win games by letting you get extra shots, it's going to win you games by forcing your opponent to make decisions and the more of those they have to make the greater the chances they're going to make bad ones.

As I've said a thousand times, if I had a list that only works when my opponent is an idiot I'd run it every time. Well here it is.

This is very well thought out. You've got a better grasp for these things than I do. I tend to have to 'trial and error' things a lot.

As to the footsloggers, I agree. I almost always run my Seer Councils on bikes, but I'm still up in the air about it.

You run your Seer Councils with Witchblades? I always go Singing Spears.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 03:24

@TeenageAngst wrote:
It would necessitate a paired and almost identically mirrored formation of Ynnari and CWE then, running them in pairs.

I disagree. You don't HAVE to trigger units off of your own units dying. ENEMY units trigger them too. And we actually have a great number of things that are pretty amazing if they get to fire twice a turn. Think about no scatter trueborn coming down and getting 5 blaster shots(with their WWP archon) at the rear of a tank, almost guaranteed to kill it, then they trigger their own power from death rule off of the enemy they just killed, and get to shoot again. This can work with scourges, trueborn, reavers, fire dragons, wraithguard, dark reapers, swooping hawks, and even Harlequin troupes. Normally, Harlequin ranged weapons make troupes too expensive because of their relative fragility and inability to make it in short range. If you pair those guns with the ability to deep strike without scatter, and a high probability of being able to fire their ranged weapons twice on the turn they arrive instead of once, suddenly the value for them is there again.

Multiply this sort of thinking across our entire "combined" army, with a much greater ability for null deployment strategies with the black guardians, and we have access to a beta strike list that can basically get entire rounds of shooting doubled on the turn it arrives.(assuming access to suitable targets to kill)

Why feed off of your own stuff dying when the enemy works just as well? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 03:33

You wouldn't bring Blasterborn for that, you would bring Wraithguard or Fire Dragons. Bringing Harlequins would be good only if you could charge out of the deep strike. Scourges are a no, they're too fragile. The Black Guardians are just lame IMO, you can't bring them with Ynnari, they don't proc like the Ynnari do, and the Guardian Battlehost is IMO a better way to run Guardians. Bottom line is I'm not going to throw units away for a solid alpha strike if I don't have to, and with scatbike and spider spam I don't have to and I can still get utility from the new rule.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:00

I was giving an example, not necessarily saying blasterborn were the thing. I listed the things you said as well. And Harlequins have some pretty sexy ranged weapon upgrades. They just normally aren't worth taking because if you deep strike them in, you'll normally only be able to depend on firing once. Not so in a reborn warhost.

But I personally am thinking I might see a return to using my swooping hawks that previously fell out of favor with only being able to use 1 grenade in melee. Now, with their no scatter deep strike, grenade packs, assault 3 weapons, and haywire grenades, they have enough flexibility to be able to deal with just about anything except MCs in a points efficient manner.

Keep in mind that ICs count as their own units, so if you deep strike several things near a deathstar and end up killing 1 or 2 ICs, those count as a unit dying, and trigger power from death. I can see forming strategies that chain a truly impressive amount of shooting together in a single turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:35

I'm willing to bet that in the absence of an FAQ saying so, many TOs will rule that if an IC dies while attached to a unit but the unit survives, Soulburst doesn't trigger. Which is unfortunate.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:41

@Jimsolo wrote:
I'm willing to bet that in the absence of an FAQ saying so, many TOs will rule that if an IC dies while attached to a unit but the unit survives, Soulburst doesn't trigger.  Which is unfortunate.

I don't think they really can, without making it a house rule and being outed as a tyrant. The rules in the rulebook are crystal clear on this, and every other rule that hinges on a unit dying(first blood, or killpoints, for instance), is expressly triggered by the death of an independent character that is joined to a unit.

The rulebook clearly states that, while considered to be a part of the unit they joined for all rules interactions, they are still a unit in and of themselves as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:42

@BetrayTheWorld you're using Dark Eldar tactics for an army that doesn't need them. The Dark Eldar rely on bold moves and things maybe happening because that's what they need to win, miracles. Ynnari are using CWE tactics taken to the next level, and the CWE operate on attrition. You have the statistical leverage when you set up on the board against most match ups, all you need to do is position yourself throughout the game to take advantage of that. Your strategy means that one or two shoddy dice rolls could end the magical chain of events that was supposed to see your army shooting twice all game. CWE can weather an entire turn of bad dice if they have to. They don't need gambles or maybes, they have guarantees.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:52

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Ynnari are using CWE tactics taken to the next level, and the CWE operate on attrition. You have the statistical leverage when you set up on the board against most match ups, all you need to do is position yourself throughout the game to take advantage of that.


You keep speaking to me, an avid CWE player, as if you're 100% certain you know how to play CWE better than I, yet by your own admission, your only serious venture into trying to play CWE competitively using the best list you could formulate ended in complete disaster over multiple games. Perhaps that is an indication that you're incorrect.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:59

Alright, mate. You're right. I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. You show me how to make a CWE list.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 05:03

I don't think you "don't know what you're talking about," (when it comes to strategic operations you're very insightful) but I think that your disagreement here, as well as the problems you ran into when you were running your CWE army recently, is born from the same root cause: you might be overestimating the power level of CWE a little bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 05:12

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Alright, mate. You're right. I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. You show me how to make a CWE list.

Now you're acting indignant, but is what I'm saying that difficult to believe?

Virtually every post you make about CWE is some derivative of this: "Just spam scatterbikes and warp spiders, then sprinkle on some wraithknight and jetseer council to taste."

But then, when you attempted to actually apply the advice you are all too eager to give to everyone else, it failed miserably. Now, I'm not saying that all those units suck, and that your results are a direct result of poor unit choices. All I'm saying is that, if you know you've tried it and it didn't work for you, isn't it POSSIBLE that a different way of playing might ACTUALLY be better, despite not being the most popular way to play them on the internet? And if it IS possible, wouldn't it be likely that the person who'd deliver that information to you would likely be a good player who plays that faction 95% of all games? So what good does continuously spouting the status quo do?

I think that playing things in the most popular way is the surest road to mediocrity, and I never shoot for mediocrity.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 05:20

Is the 7 unit requirement measured at the beginning of the game or when the soul burst is triggered?
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 05:21

So please, BTW, enlighten me on the subtle nuances of this army I am not seeing, because clearly I have missed the mark.

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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 06:02

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Is the 7 unit requirement measured at the beginning of the game or when the soul burst is triggered?

That's a good question I was pondering myself.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
So please, BTW, enlighten me on the subtle nuances of this army I am not seeing, because clearly I have missed the mark.

Look, if you ever end up genuinely wanting my advice, come find me and I'll be happy to help because I don't hold grudges over silly things like this. But I'm not going to engage you when you're clearly being flippant. And with our prior interactions, I don't expect you to suddenly revere my opinion, so suffice to say that I've heard and understand your opinion, and I don't need it repeated ad nauseum every time I espouse a different playstyle than the status quo.
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PostSubject: Re: Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions   Sat Feb 11 2017, 06:46

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@amorrowlyday wrote:
Is the 7 unit requirement measured at the beginning of the game or when the soul burst is triggered?

That's a good question I was pondering myself.

I think it is fairly obvious that this is counted for when it happens and not at the start of the game.

I am actually looking forward to this. There is a lot to combine, especially for someone like me, who more often then not plays with the "rule of cool".
All the Black Guardians, or to be fair, the Webway Assault, is exactly how I would like Dark Eldar webway assault to work. 3 BG Windriders with Scatter Laser drop behind a tank, wreck his behind and use a free souls burst action to either move away or shoot another target...
Just noticed that the beast pack doesn't benefit from soul bursts, meh too bad.

But even if our units don't preform as good as our cousins. I didn't play DE to have the best units.
Now I am looking forward to a Succubus with Corag Hai's Locket sounds pretty interesting, though I am not a pretty big fan of the rest of the artifacts. Maybe the Lost Shroud for a paranoid archon in his lonely Venom.
It just gives me a possibility to extend the flavor of my army, Dire Avengers as counts as Trueborn? Finally some elite shooty version of the Kabalite warrior again lol

Thats just my impression.

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