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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:10 am

@Ynneadwraith wrote:

There's a story that Farseers from that craftworld ventured into Nurgle's garden t orescue her, and made it all the way there before Nurgle caught them and turned them into petrified trees around where Isha's kept. Need to find out what the narrative voice is for that story though. If it's a legend retold in-universe then it might be a myth, but if it's a firsthand account then it's probably true.

I guess that would be that one craftworld that believed. (I'm curious to learn if it's specified which one.)

@Ynneadwraith wrote:

Leads to an interesting question though. If all Eldar souls are Slaanesh's, then what's the point of other Chaos Gods attacking craftworlds if they're not going to get the bounty? I suppose it might be that Slaanesh lays claim to them, but finders keepers (of secrets), and if you can get away with it they're yours.

I don't normally think of Chaos as harvesting souls. Tempting and corrupting them, but not violently taking them, with the dooming doom of the doomed Eldar being the exception. Is it different with actual daemons? I don't know.

I do know that the Chaos Powers don't just eat souls, and that relevant feelings even from souls that don't belong to them will still empower them.

Killing and bloodshed is an act of worship for Khorne, no matter where the souls go.

Tzeentch might need a craftworld removed, or damaged, or looking the wrong way while he's doing something else, because he has a plan.

Nurgle might want to try a disease that infects wraithbone, or stop a craftworld from curing one of his creations.

Also, craftworlds are full of neat stuff that the followers of Chaos might want.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:31 am

Okay, maybe not the most popular first post but here goes my (wild) theory regarding the matter ;

In 8th edition Dark eldar will be split up, part of it will be an Aeldari faction (Commorites), and the other part will become a Chaos faction (Drukhari). The latter being Vect, the Haemonculi covens (as mortals) & Mandrakes, their briefly mentioned midnight dimension monsters and Ur-Ghul (as demons).
Also making the Triumvate rumor of Vect + 2 chaos dudes a tiny little bit more likely...
And I go as far as guessing that, after Ynnari codex+new miniatures, these Drukhari are next eldar in 8th edition.

While I cant see the Dark Eldar becoming Slaanesh aligned ofcourse, the majority of the mortal chaos forces arent actually aligned to chaos gods either, some downright hate them, and dark eldar might just as well been Chaos Eldar (lets face it.. a lot of their members are more Evil -by our standards- than most daemons even.) the only thing that stands in the way of this is Slaanesh, however, I think the storyline of the Croneswords and Ynnead is not done yet, and Slaanesh fate in 40k will somehow be put in a similar position as AoS. This same storyline somehow creating the trigger for Vect/Haemonculi covens to work with (unaligned?) chaos forces. Turning his Biel-tan storyline to more than just an "I will get you gadget, next time!" (remember the first triumvate allies werent exactly a bunch of friends, greyfax hated celestine.)

My reasoning being heavily focused on one of the few things GW said clearly themselves, That no matter what army you play you will get something. And Haemonculi covens just happen to be a playable army. So there must be more to them in this narrative and at least 1 miniature, but, considering the amount left to do I dont expect them to have a Triumvate purely focused on them. (yes, the Ynnari had it, but, that was only because they gave an excuse to give non-HC dark eldar, craftworld eldar, Iyanden and Harlequins their "something" in one swoop, wether people like it or not doesnt matter, they did give it.)

some things that further fueled the theory :
- Drukhari isnt mentioned in the book or I overlooked it, so, narratively I dont think Drukhari exist yet.
- Vect is almost exclusively associated with Haemonculi covens in the story, and mostly uses their forces to work for him.
- Ur-ghuls are presented as moving in packs, and the Mandrakes come with monsters apparently. all these represent more than simple fluff mentions imho.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:57 am

You seem like a nice human, but to me that looks a lot like, "I just want there to be Chaos Eldar even though it doesn't make any sense."

There's lots of evil in the galaxy besides Chaos. Like the Necrons. And the Orks. And the Imperium. Just because we're evil too doesn't mean we have to be lumped in with Chaos.

And it would be particularly odd because the Dark Eldar have lived all this time in the webway and suppressed their psychic powers in order to hide from Chaos.

Anybody who wants a tentacle growing out of the side of their face can just go talk to a Haemonculus.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure what the Ruinous Powers could offer the True Kin. The Dark Eldar already have achievable, practical immortality, and they're a meritocracy, so there's always room for advancement if you're cunning enough.

Where did GW say every army would get something?

(Ooh, maybe we'll see Chaos Tyranids! They're evil too, and a hive mind is still a mind, it could worship Chaos.)

(I am joking. And i keep imagining Slaaneshi Hormagaunts and laughing.)

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:02 am

While I am also not that much in favour of chaos.

The idea of more Shadow oriented eldar suits me fine and fit's with the fluff.

They already use chimera (demons) mandrakes (which sometimes where semi demonic) so while chaos might not work the idea of shadow demons makes sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:12 am

I think it's funny how all out of a sudden everybody seems to know exactly what GW is going to do next. Even if there is little to none evidence. Literally.

I find it very doubtful that GW is going to split up a fringe codex into further smaller pieces. EXTREMELY doubtful.

More than that, we basically already have "two pieces of codices": The main codex and the Coven supplement. If they want to introduce a crazy Vect-Coven alliance then they can do that with the supplement, case solved. Same with Mandrakes or other weird fringe phenomena like Ur-Ghouls.
Just put that stuff into the supplement, maybe rename it into something like "Fringes of Commorragh" (idk) and you are done.

Also, recently GW seems to be more in favour of big campaign books with rules in it. Me and others would not be surprised if GW just makes a campaign book and just throws all DE their rules into that.


Sorry for that rough start, welcome to the forums Razz

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:19 am

You have to admit that the true kin feed slaanesh everyday, just with the suffering of others, to not get deseccated by She Who Thirsts. So we serve chaos already.
Just without the mono boobs and all that.
I like it that way.
I don't think Vect would start being faithful all of a sudden.
I rather suspect him to use chaos or at least Abaddon and/or whoever else is member of his Triumvirate (or maybe even the gods?) for his own ends, without giving much in return.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:11 am

Hey @TheMawr

First off I don't think anyone's welcomed you to The Dark City yet...so welcome! Smile

As for the tinfoil hat theories (of which I'm a veritable connoisseur!) I think you're predictions are probably quite accurate regarding the future of mono-Dark Eldar. The emphasis placed on Covens and Mandrakes during the Fracture of Biel Tan definitely feels like it's pointing towards the future of Vect's forces.

As for the Chaos Eldar thing I do think it's a possibility albeit a remote one. They might go all 'SHYAMALAN TWIST!!1!!1' on us and have Vect ally with Chaos, but if it does happen I'm fairly certain I'll throw up a little. While ostensibly it's not such an unlikely thing (Dark Eldar do in all likelihood feed Slaanesh, and they're a supposed 'evil' faction) it does take a bit of a dump on all of the nuance that's been baked into the faction.

For me, the racial story for the Eldar is one of tragedy. Craftworlders are easy in that regard, but it applies to Commorrites too. While they claim that they commit these atrocities purely because they enjoy it, there's always a hint of desperation to it, which adds a really nice bit of nuance to their story. They're every bit as locked into their path as the Craftworlders.

It's part of the reason I really hope they don't get rid of Slaanesh. It's Slaanesh dragging on their souls that gives the Eldar fluff its piquancy. Without that, it's just 'Dark Eldar are bad because they're evil mmkay', which has far less depth.

However, that's not saying that you can't do Chaos Eldar with depth Smile there's loads of opportunity for that.

1. Eldar trapped in the Eye that are desperately trying to avoid Slaanesh's gaze and have pledged themselves to another God for protection (this only really works for me if it's a real struggle to avoid Slaanesh, not 'oh we like Khorne now so Slaanesh can't touch us').

2. Eldar resurrected by Slaanesh as playthings

3. This guy: http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=229284.0

Oh, and props on the name btw Wink Anything exoditey is good by me Smile shameless plug in 3...2...1... check out my plog for exodite stuff Wink

Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:38 am

@theMawr: I think you are probably more right than wrong in your predictions.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:44 pm

Wtf??? How did he do those floral design elements? They are AWESOME! I NEED DIS!

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:06 pm

@CptMetal wrote:
Wtf??? How did he do those floral design elements? They are AWESOME! I NEED DIS!

They're awesome aren't they Smile I asked him actually and he said it was more straight-forwards than it looks at first sight. You dab on loads of little dark purple blobs in roughly clumped together patches, then dab on smaller pink blobs over the top. Then you connect them all together with branches et voila! One awesome cherry-blossom-style paintjob Smile

Of course, not having tried it it's probably one of those things that's a lot easier to explain than do...

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:05 am

Dont worry about the rough starts and you seem like a nice human being apologies Smile Because basically these reactions are my whole intention with wild theories. Push discussions deeper, but I never take it personal (heck, I would get bored if there would be only "yeah maybe thats true" kind of reactions.) I get that it sounds wishlisty, but it actually isnt. For my own projects I take very little regard of official directions. ( Im actually contemplating a project to make a Haemonculi coven+ eldar GS hybrids + tyranid pets myself.)

Regarding the triumvate BTW, I actually have huge doubts about the Vect and 2 chaos dudes rumor, mostly because the first time I saw that rumor it was by someone who also claimed the Eldar box had Eldrad, Yriel and Veilwalker. But it kept popping up on other places, and it creates an interesting basis for wild speculation.

in reality we dont have any indication there will be more than these 3, But last year in one of their videos they did announce the campaigns leading to 8th edition would have "big shakeups to the background and not everyone will be happy with everything, but no matter what army you play there will be something for everyone." I personally think 8th edition will hit Oktober, because that would be exactly 30 years after Rogue trader. giving us 6 more months of status quo changing madness.

But ofcourse, its all wild speculation.

Maybe a good starting point would be to also put forth my theories on slaaneshgate.
Alot of people speculate what is going on with slaanesh and GW is "eek boobs" wich I doubt.
I think the first and foremost problem with Slaanesh is, it simply doesnt sell well, boobs sell, monoboobs do not, uncanny valley and all that. we have 3 main chaos gods that sell much better, and the best solution is to re-invent Slaanesh into something else, seperate from the big 3, technically killing it off in all but name.

And I do think the fracture of biel-tan gave some parts to what is going on there too.
While Dark eldar and Dark elves are not "equal" ... it is interesting that the direction for elves will be the Shadowkin , and that now for Dark eldar there is expansion on the shadow "demon" sides too.
And since Dark elf do not equal Dark eldar... I think the similarities of the Shadow side have a lot to do with what they are planning with Slaanesh. Would be interesting to see a Keeper of Secrets design thats not ironic Wink
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:57 am

@TheMawr wrote:

While Dark eldar and Dark elves are not "equal" ... it is interesting that the direction for elves will be the Shadowkin , and that now for Dark eldar there is expansion on the shadow "demon" sides too.
And since Dark elf do not equal Dark eldar... I think the similarities of the Shadow side have a lot to do with what they are planning with Slaanesh. Would be interesting to see a Keeper of Secrets design thats not ironic Wink

Well, I'm hoping that the forces of Aelindrach turn out to be completely separate from Slaanesh.. perhaps followers of some sort of forgotten Lovecraftian shadow diety.

One thing that I don't mind at all is Vect's territory getting carved up. When the 5th edition codex hit, the fluff of Vect being the supreme ruler of Commorragh was the only thing that I didn't particularly care for, as I had always viewed the dark city as not having a singular ruler because all of the archons were constantly fighting to maintain a balance of power. So the possibility of Vect being pushed back into the position of major player, without being the undisputed ruler of Commorragh, is fine with me.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:37 am

@krayd wrote:

Well, I'm hoping that the forces of Aelindrach turn out to be completely separate from Slaanesh.. perhaps followers of some sort of forgotten Lovecraftian shadow diety.

Yeah I'm hoping they expand the Madrakes as some sort of otherworldly entity. Perhaps Qah, a suspected surviving Old One and patron of the Hrud/Umbra might be a good candidate. Especially if they make the Old Ones out to be far more alien and lovecraftian than originally envisaged Smile

Also, I definitely don't think it's the concept of Slaanesh that isn't selling, more the execution. Mawr's right, it's the whole monoboob androgenes thing. They're just not nice models, especially compared to the utter masterclass that was the Juan Diaz Daemonettes. I also don't see the issue at all with them being not-kid-friendly. Just put them on the top shelf in the FLGS. There's much worse things on the top shelf of corner shops, and parents have no issue with kids buying sweets from there...

Someone pointed something out to me that gives me a little hope for Slaanesh (my favourite Chaos God). They appear to be giving each Chaos God a year/season of focus where they get significant updates. First off it was Nurgle with the Blightkings and Season of War (or whatever the conflict with Sylvaneth is). Next was Khorne and the AoS Bloodbound/40k . Now it's Tzeentch's turn with massive AoS releases, new LoC and Magnus/1kSons.

That's sort of leading up to a joint 'hi guys, Slaanesh is back!' for AoS, and a Slaaneshi counterattack/grand battle with Ynnead in 40k. Especially seeing as I've heard a couple of rumblings about a potential Aelveolan civil war with some turning to Slaanesh in AoS.

That's what I'm hoping at least. Alongside some better Daemonette models.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:21 am

Well it might have been unclear but I didnt expect/theorise/speculate that Dark eldar would go worship or follow Slaanesh (or another god for that matter.)

An ambigious possibility I would not put beyond the Dark eldar to want (and succeed) to try;
Capturing a god.

What if the whole story progresses the fifth crone sword is obtained, Ynnead is born, ready to kick Slaanesh's ass... But Vect and the Haemonculi pull a nice trick. Capture Slaanesh (in the just opened Midnight dimension perhaps.) I can just see Vect grin towards Yvraine and whisper "this is for commoragh"
Now they have access to all Slaanesh's assets without having to worship her. (even though I agree what was said that for all intents and purposes, they do so through their lifestyle anyway.)
Slaanesh the bound god, censored god, chained god...
This direction would actually be very fitting for Dark Eldar themes, Slaanesh themes and would keep the Eldar element of "fear for their souls" intact... now those that are not Dark eldar or Ynnari have two soul stealing entities to worry about, even though they are both under the control of other Eldar.

Likewise it could be resulting in an AoS duality were the new "dark elves" (as the elves there set out to capture/kill slaanesh as well.) could also have bound Slaanesh to their will.

Basically, daemonettes would be the slaves dancing in the halls of Drukhari and Shadowkin alike.
I do want new Daemonettes to have chastity belts then, with the Keeper of secrets models having keychains XD But I dont expect the Daemonettes to be remade (I dont think any plastic models of that generation will be remade actually.)

Naturally just as Ynneads storyline has hints that it all might not be so glorious after all, I can totally see this plan having some holes, Drukhari that hear whispering in their head, slaanesh ofcourse trying to influence. But, those elements will be elements to resolve 30 years from now.

The only thing I couldnt piece into this is the Emperors children, while Fabius bile might be all into this, and Lucius might actually get along with dark eldar very well or just as likely be killed off in the fluff (wich is impossible but ok). Fulgrim is a problem. He had hate for slaanesh, but I dont think he would as a daemon primarch ?
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:29 am

@TheMawr wrote:

The only thing I couldnt piece into this is the Emperors children, while Fabius bile might be all into this, and Lucius might actually get along with dark eldar very well or just as likely be killed off in the fluff (wich is impossible but ok). Fulgrim is a problem. He had hate for slaanesh, but I dont think he would as a daemon primarch ?

Heh. The DE taking a page from the Necron playbook on 'How to deal with Gods'. I like it.

Well, all demon princes are technically slaves to their patron deity. So, if Slaanesh were imprisoned, it might do two things - 1) create a power vacuum in The Warp, and 2) free Slaanesh's more powerful servants from their obligation to obey Slaanesh. So, I imagine Fulgrim might try to seize the opportunity to achieve a greater level of godhood in The Warp... but he wouldn't be the only one trying to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:10 pm

At this point I am convinced that Slaanesh will be replaced by none other than Slambo.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:13 pm

Nahh, he will replace not only slaanesh, but abaddon as well.
But in reality, its one of vects proxies :p
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:54 am

funny how you think that the fluff is going to be further written (with mandrakes etc)
we are just a sideshow in this 3 fluff-books, and we needed to wait several years for that.

Why do all of you think there is more to come? Idea

Not to mention that Gulli is back...

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:38 am

I guess it will be about the fracturing of the human empire, not really about dark Eldar..

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:18 am

@Alvaneron wrote:
funny how you think that the fluff is going to be further written (with mandrakes etc)
we are just a sideshow in this 3 fluff-books, and we needed to wait several years for that.

Why do all of you think there is more to come? Idea

Not to mention that Gulli is back...

It amuses me just as well.
Still, there is nothing wrong with hoping and theorizing.
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