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 of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 06:44

To both: yes? Did I suggest anything beyond that? Khaine being the ascendant manifestation prior to M25 is irrelevant. Slaanesh and Ynneads relationship, beyond Jes Goodwin casually guarding a couple thing most people will gloss right over in the yncarne design video I strongly doubt we'll see this mystery clear up before at least what ever the rumored vect model is gets released, if ever.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 11:19

I'd just like to take this opportunity to rant and rave about just how much I dislike the retconning of Khorne into the fight between Khaine and Slaanesh. Spoilered due to rantiness!

Spoiler:
 

Jeez that was cathartic. Thanks guys Smile

Hate that piece of fluff.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 11:56

@Ynneadwraith

Hah! I like you. You can stay.

@amorrowlyday

If I understand your theory correctly, there can only be a single god of war/murder/violence, and therefore Khorne and Khaine must be the same deity. Is that right? It's a perfectly valid interpretation, though again, so far as I know, it isn't supported in the books. Also, by that logic, Khaine is also Gork and Mork.

Why can there only be one murder/violence/war god?

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 12:12

@Calyptra wrote:
@Ynneadwraith

Hah! I like you. You can stay.

@amorrowlyday

If I understand your theory correctly, there can only be a single god of war/murder/violence, and therefore Khorne and Khaine must be the same deity. Is that right? It's a perfectly valid interpretation, though again, so far as I know, it isn't supported in the books. Also, by that logic, Khaine is also Gork and Mork.

Why can there only be one murder/violence/war god?

Sweet Wink

I'm perfectly fine with there being multiple deities in the warp vying over the same territory. I've always though of the Chaos Gods as very much human entities, although that doesn't quite work so well with Slaanesh.

Hmmm, thinking about it there might be one important distinction between Chaos Gods and other warp deities: who they draw their power from.

The Eldar Gods are (most likely) warp entities just like the Chaos Gods, but their sphere of interest is centred solely upon the Eldar. Same story with Gork and Mork: warp entities, but only concerned with Orks.

However, the distinction with the Chaos Gods is that they have branched out. They may have initially began as human (or Eldar) deities, but they have innovated, and spread their influence beyond the affairs of humans, corrupting any race they can get their claws into.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:28

The Orks have no real gods. Not in as a warp entity, as far as I know.

Their gods are projections of their combined psychic power but not an actual deity.... Or?
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:46

@CptMetal wrote:
The Orks have no real gods. Not in as a warp entity, as far as I know.

Their gods are projections of their combined psychic power but not an actual deity.... Or?

The line in the sand between a warp entity, warp deity and a projection of a race's combined psychic power is frighteningly thin, if existent at all.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 18:05

@CptMetal wrote:
The Orks have no real gods. Not in as a warp entity, as far as I know.

Their gods are projections of their combined psychic power but not an actual deity.... Or?

Well, the same logic apply to Ynnead.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 18:34

Nope. Gork/mork exist canonically per waaaaagh gazghkull.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 18:56

Can they intervene like a warp based god and do they have demons? No...
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 19:25

They most certainly did in waaagh gazghkull... Do you just cherry pick fluff?
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 19:38

@amorrowlyday wrote:
They most certainly did in waaagh gazghkull... Do you just cherry pick fluff?

We kind of have to really or else any given story or piece of fluff looks like it was written by the 4 gospels.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 19:42

That's not really cherry picking. I would describe that as data sifting or a couple more complex terms that I am blanking on at the moment. That's also radically different from what the Cpt is doing. They are ignoring blatant evidence to the contrary of the claim they are making in direct response to that evidence.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:14

I may not have many books on Chaos, but I have lots on Orks! From Waaargh the Orks, pages 60 & 61:

"The Ork character, which is strong and virtually invulnerable, has its reflection in the warp in the form of the mighty, belligerent, and boisterous Ork gods. Known Ork gods include two legendary heroic deities commonly called Gork and Mork."

"In Ork mythology, the two gods Gork and Mork regularly confront the Powers of Chaos and the gods of the other alien races."

"By analogy, there are gargantuan Orkish powers in the warp - powers that are the reflections of the the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne. Indeed, Khorne does feed on these aspects of Orkish character; this shows in the very face of Khorne, which has markedly Orkish aspects."

From there it gets in to why Chaos isn't able to gain traction in either Ork society or the Ork psyche.

(Waaargh the Orks is still one of the best books GW has ever released, with the worst binding.)

It seems like the books are always making a clear distinction between a regular god and a Chaos god, but I'm not sure what, precisely, the difference is. It seems like the other gods are unable to make daemons, and that the Chaos gods are the only deities not connected to a specific species, but I'm guessing these differences are resulting from whatever the inherent difference between god and Chaos god is.

Sigh. I wonder how many months rent Slaves to Darkness and Lost & the Damned would cost me on ebay...


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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:22

I think the difference between a chaos god and a god of a species is simply the expansion beyond your original species.

Ostensibly khorne, nurgle and tzeentch are human gods (according to the liber chaotica at least, not sure how much i buy that), but they corrupt any species they encounter. Same goes for slaanesh.

As for daemons i think it's a power thing. To create a daemon, a chaos god splits off a portion of its power and imbues it with intelligence. If you're a weakened god, like Cegorach, then you probably can't afford to go splitting off what little power you retain. Khaine however, appears to have been split into so many daemons he's lost his status as a single conscious entity.

As for Gork and Mork lord knows. Perhaps they just think it's funnier to watch their orks crump things...
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:26

Yep! and in Waagh gazhgull one of them materializes in realspace. Thanks so much for this addition Calyptra.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:35

I believe the Liber Chaotica is specific to Fantasy, isn't it? There are some differences, and I suspect those differences are the source of a lot of confusion about this. Certainly Elven souls are not immediately and automatically consumed by Slaanesh. I've seen people on the internet (so I don't know for sure that this is true) say that the Khaine-Khorne relationship is different in Fantasy, and that that's where the Khaine and Khorne being different aspects of the same god thing comes from.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:37

I can imagine it now...

Gork:  OO NEEDS DEEMONS WHEN YER GOT ORKS?!

Mork:  WHEN YOU GOT ORKS YER DON'T NEED DEEMONS STOOPID!

[they fight]

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Mon Feb 13 2017, 23:06

@Tounguekutter wrote:
I can imagine it now...

Gork: OO NEEDS DEEMONS WHEN YER GOT ORKS?!

Mork: WHEN YOU GOT ORKS YER DON'T NEED DEEMONS STOOPID!

[they fight]
The clear solution here is DEEMON ORKS (Someone convert this please!)

Since we passed by the topic of Khaine do you guys think we'll ever be able to have him back in one piece again now that Ynnead is with us? Or do you think that is me wishing too much? Because I really would like to see more of the Eldar's gods active now that things are picking up.

Well on the topic of gods I had the weirdest conversation with someone last week who ships Slaanesh and Ynnead because of a 1d4chan article about Slaanesh Fiends and Dream interpretations. If you want the long of it here.
Wonky Dream Interpretation that has nothing to do with Canon but lead to an...interesting convo:
 
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 03:46

Here's a looted daemon prince: https://i.imgur.com/nodMvi1.jpg

Back in the 2nd edition codex there was a one sentence blurb in a paragraph talking about pirates that mentioned chaos Eldar as being very rare (slaanesh found them too tasty to keep around) but if they did remain they would number among 'the strongest champions of chaos'.

If some chaos related fluff came out with a blurb that "Daemon prince Yrielalrealal is rumored to be a pre-fall Eldar" it'd be interesting without the need of making new models or shaking up existing factions. An eldar turning to khorne, tzeentch, or nurgle in his desperation to 'save' his soul from slaanesh is also a scenario I can believe.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 04:06

Yeah, there's some internal logic to it, but i would like to know how territorial the Ruinous Powers are regarding the souls they've claimed. If accepting the worship of some particularly deranged Eldar would mean having to go to war with Slaanesh, I'm not convinced that Papa Nurgle would consider it worthwhile.

And the Eldar are awfully psychic for Khorne.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 04:09

Papa nurgle DID tho and won. Or do you suggest that eldar warp beings, who slaanesh has a demonstrable ability to consume like regular souls, are materially distinct from ascendent souls escaping real space above and beyond concentration? If so the Emperor says you are wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 09:31

Ah, the Liber Chaotica being specific to Fantasy would explain a lot of the more 'WTF' implications it has for 40k fluff Smile

Yeah I remember the Chaos Eldar throwaway line. Nothing else spoken of it since, and while I suppose it's theoretically possible that Eldar could pledge themselves to another Chaos God to protect them from Slaanesh I think the complete lack of them in the fluff is indicative of how effective that is...

As for Isha, I'd say her and Nurgle are an exceptional case. Very powerful collection of souls/power/emotions/stuff. Much more worth fighting for than a handful of measly Eldar Wink

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 10:24

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Papa nurgle DID tho and won. Or do you suggest that eldar warp beings, who slaanesh has a demonstrable ability to consume like regular souls, are materially distinct from ascendent souls escaping real space above and beyond concentration? If so the Emperor says you are wrong.

I would suggest that a goddess would be more worth fighting over than a handful of mortals. I don't think it matters if he won, unless you're saying Nurgle is so much more powerful than She Who Thirsts that he can brush her aside without being hurt in return. It's not just a question of winning, it's a question of whether the victory was worth the cost.

According to Lexicanum, the Nurgle v Slaanesh over Isha story "is believed by one craftworld," so it may or may not have happened like that, or at all.

Are you saying that the soul of a god has a 1:1 correlation with the soul of a mortal?

The Emperor is 1) not a reliable narrator, and 2) a turnip.

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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 11:02

@amorrowlyday I was not aware that Orks demons exist or that they intervened...
Or that the god materialized
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PostSubject: Re: of the Haemonculi and Slaanesh   Tue Feb 14 2017, 11:59

@Calyptra wrote:
I would suggest that a goddess would be more worth fighting over than a handful of mortals. I don't think it matters if he won, unless you're saying Nurgle is so much more powerful than She Who Thirsts that he can brush her aside without being hurt in return. It's not just a question of winning,  it's a question of whether the victory was worth the cost.

According to Lexicanum, the Nurgle v Slaanesh over Isha story "is believed by one craftworld," so it may or may not have happened like that, or at all.

Are you saying that the soul of a god has a 1:1 correlation with the soul of a mortal?

The Emperor is 1) not a reliable narrator, and 2) a turnip.

There's a story that Farseers from that craftworld ventured into Nurgle's garden t orescue her, and made it all the way there before Nurgle caught them and turned them into petrified trees around where Isha's kept. Need to find out what the narrative voice is for that story though. If it's a legend retold in-universe then it might be a myth, but if it's a firsthand account then it's probably true.

Saying that, I do think that a God is worth fighting for more than a handful of mortals. They're absolutely made of the same stuff, but Isha's going to be made of more of it.

Leads to an interesting question though. If all Eldar souls are Slaanesh's, then what's the point of other Chaos Gods attacking craftworlds if they're not going to get the bounty? I suppose it might be that Slaanesh lays claim to them, but finders keepers (of secrets), and if you can get away with it they're yours.

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