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 I lost to Orks today.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 07:08

To see if I still feel...

WARNING: LONG RANTING SHAGGY DOG STORY AHEAD

I have no idea where to post this but since it more or less culminates in a battle report I figured this is the place. If it needs to be moved that's fine. Ever since I got my s*** kicked in at Hammer In The New Year my excitement for this game has been about a 2 and dropping, culminating in tonight. The reason is, I built an entire Eldar force for an experiment my friend and I were mulling over. It was this: Since I can take a dogs*** army like Dark Eldar and come out of a tournament with a positive win to loss ratio, what would happen if I was put in the drivers seat of a full blown meta army? Essentially it would be testing my mettle as a player, with no ability to lay blame on my army holding me back. During the 3 month process of assembling and painting a scatbike list I learned to hate Eldar, which is a shame because I have some very lovingly painted units like Wraithguard, Black Guardians, Dire Avengers, etc. And when I say hate Eldar I don't mean I just lost interest I mean I actively dislike playing them or even seeing them on the table. They became an obligation. Against ordinary lists, my Dark Eldar tournament lists would still be considered a game. With the Eldar, it was decided by turn 2, everything else was just a formality of removing models from the board. Plus, the only aspect of my entire list that was unique to me was the Hemlock Wraithfighter I brought in place of a Warp Hunter because I didn't have a Warp Hunter.

The first red flags were when I was getting tabled by my friend's pure CSM list. His Death Guard just mopped the floor with my Eldar time and time again. No modifications I made seemed to make a difference either. I was going to back out and go with Dark Eldar, since they worked well against the Plague Marines, but I decided to see the experiment through. However, I knew I wasn't going to win the event so instead I walked in with a handful of personal objectives. I wanted the Hemlock to earn its points, I wanted to table a Tau player so hard they cried, and I wanted to not be in the bottom half. At the end of the event I'd gone 1-1-3, losing against 2 other Eldar players and a Tzeench army. My Hemlock earned its points, but the rest of the army continually fell apart around me. I tabled a Tau player so hard he got depressed, but it was a guy I know and he was having a bum time with his new army too so I actually kinda almost felt bad about it. And I placed really low in the standings. With the experiment concluded, basically I discovered that even with a competitive army and a competitive list I'm a s*** player, which made me think those wins with Dark Eldar were a combination of people sleeping on me, dumb luck, and no one knowing wtf the army does.

So I get home and double down on Dark Eldar, partly because if I'm going to be a bad player and lose I might as well enjoy it, which Dark Eldar always had that charm, and partly because I was holding out that this new Eldar book would come with some fun stuff I could try with my army. I end up on a hot streak, not just winning, but pummeling people with DE. I was like you know what, maybe this is it. Maybe I'm just a DE player, that's what I know, that's what I'm good with. A few buffs here and there and my lists might have some real teeth. Then more and more leaks came out about the new book and formations and I began to realize what was happening. Dark Eldar weren't getting anything new. We were instead getting a new overfaction and the new models were for that overfaction alone. Worst of all, the new overfaction was just a universal rule set for all Eldar factions, meaning if I was to run it, what would I need to bring?

Scatbikes. Warp Spider Aspect Hosts. Wraithknights. An entire list of goddamned Eldar. You've heard my reasons for hating this new book and faction already so I won't rehash it here.

I stopped buying spare models with pocket change on my trips to the game shop. I stopped assembling dudes, I stopped painting, I stopped winning. I stopped making lists for fun or reading army books during my constitutionals (as is tradition) or writing fluff pieces. Instead I started looking up ebay prices for Dark Eldar armies and thinking about how I could rebuild my gaming rig with that cash so I can max out Overwatch. Other issues wore on me as well, such as a much greater workload at my job, financial concerns, and trying to find a new place to live. My stress levels were pegging and becoming ambivalent to my favorite hobby/escape was not helping matters.

ORKS BATTLE REPORT BEGINS HERE

This culminated in tonight when I was debating whether or not to actually show up to the shop since I was exhausted from work. My friend texted me that he would be there as I was walking out so I decided I'd better show up so he has a game. I basically lugged my army into the game shop, sat down, and promptly forgot what I was doing for the next half an hour as I stared into space. My friend then showed up and brought out his Orks. He loves his Orks, probably because in spite of him saying how bad they are he manages to win almost every game he has with them. I put a list together that frankly I had no idea what I was doing involving Lelith, a Grotesquerie, 2 DE CADs full of warrior boats, a Scalpel Squadron, and Mandrakes. My opponent ran a 6 model deep unit of Killa Kanz with Grotzookas, a Deff Dread, Flash Gitz in a Wartrukk, some Deff Coptas, a Warboss with a Lucky Stick in some Choppa Boyz, Meganobs in a Trukk, and some Grots.

The entire series of events that followed was just bad decisions on my part and from list building to deployment I think I was subconsciously half throwing the game just so I could go home. We were running the relic mission and I won the roll off, but chose to go second. I deployed warriors outside of boats in spite of there being 12 S6 AP5 blasts coming from the Killa Kanz. I didn't infiltrate my Mandrakes. I didn't null deploy, thus losing any possible advantage my Scalpel Squadron might have brought. None of this was intentional so much as it was a habitual oversight. My opponent on the other hand had his man missiles ready to go and used his Deff Coptas for cover. The first turn I managed to immobilize 2 of my own boats on terrain and lose another 2 to shooting, while only killing the odd Deff Copta in return. On turn 2 the center of the table turned into a blender. My Grot squads, Lelith, the Killa Kanz, the Boyz squad with the warboss, and the Deff Dread all collapsed into one big combat that lasted 3 turns. During this time, 3 Dakka Jets ran roughshod over my boats and my warriors were being mowed down by Flash Gitz. Blows were traded fast and furious, many Boyz died and I killed more than half the Killa Kanz, but eventually my Grots died and so did Lelith. By the end of the combat I had managed to drag the relic onto my side of the board but the warboss caught the lone Llhamean that was running away with it and charged her. The game ended on turn 5 when we realized I only had a boat and 3 units of dudes alive.

My friend had a wonderful time and said it was a great game. It really was, it played exactly as Orks games should go, with a big long melee in the middle where lots of Boyz die and lots of Kanz blow up but in the end the WAAAAGH!!! pushes through to victory. There was lots of shooting, Meganobz died when a Venom gunline came on my board edge, boats blew up to Dakka Jets, zooming skimmers blocked the objective, and outflanking Mandrakes made things interesting around turn 3. In retrospect it was probably the best game I'd played in a long time in terms of fluff and interesting events and twists and turns, but I just wasn't feeling it. My friend was though, and I'm glad he enjoyed it, and I'm glad he got to win with his Orks. So in the end I was glad I went and even glad I lost. However, that enjoyment came from my friend having a good time. The game itself was frustrating and annoying, even when I was running some of my favorite models.

So what is the moral of this ramble? I'm just not having fun with this game anymore. I can't tell if it's burnout, stress in my life leaking into the game, my disappointment with the new Eldar content, the current position of my army in the meta, or just a lack of enthusiasm about the game in general. This happened before with World of Warcraft and I never went back. Over the past few years I've invested a lot of time, money, and energy into this hobby and I'd really rather not lose that over some temporary frustration. I've made a lot of friends in it, going to events and seeing people I know is great. Hell, I have gone on adventures because of this game. But it's hard to care about painting a box of Wyches when they're never going to leave the shelf, or kitbashing an Eldar scatbike that people are going to endlessly complain about every time I field it. My options are running the best army in the game that no one wants to play, the worst army in the game that will get rolled by Orks, or some combination of the two where I have to throw my own fluff out the window and select units based on a cheese hierarchy that resembles picking a class of rental car. Has anyone else experienced this? Or am I alone in this weird "I kind of want to sell my armies but at the same time not" kind of limbo?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 08:09

Take a break. Best thing ever. I have to myself with everything I do. I cannot play one game for years without break. It makes it a stereotype. I have months when I just read books. I have months when I just make stuff in my workshop, I have months where I play PC games only, I have months when I play DnD only... and I have months when all I care about is lists and rules for plastic crack. With these cycles you never get tired of the stuff. :-D
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 14:10

Take a break and don't sell your army. I once did and when you start again you will curse yourself..
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 15:23

See I took a break from WoW before and never went back. Same with D&D, same with most things I stop doing for extended periods of time. I don't want to end up giving up on the game entirely.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 15:42

So definitely take a break. If you find yourself missing it after a time, come back reinvigorated. If not then it might be like World of Warcraft and something you just aren't that into anymore. The same thing happened to me World of Warcraft, and Magic the Gathering.

If you're still interested in the gaming experience, you aren't alone. Many other 40K players have felt similarly disillusioned and started playing other games. WarMachine, Hordes, and Malifaux are all popular choices. It's possible you might have more fun with one of those. Blood Bowl is coming back, too.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 20:27

Hormachines is awful, I played it twice and hated every minute of it. Malifaux is cool but I'd be playing with the same person week after week cause that's the scene here. Blood Bowl sells well but *no one* plays it here.

The reason I hated WoW was they changed the game too much, it wasn't what I signed up for anymore. I went back to a private server and sunk about 2 years into a vanilla raiding guild. That was fun and rewarding but it's not like I can just show up and ask people to just play 5th edition 40k or something so unfortunately that's out.

Other hobbies also require a significant monetary investment, like video games, which is what I primarily do outside of the 40k hobby. My Dark Eldar could set me up with a new gaming rig and that is a tempting offer. Even other tabletop games need books, models, etc to be bought in order to be played.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 21:51

40k is a game with a high burnout Factor. Even people who really enjoy it often take breaks. It sounds like you might want to take a break and see if you miss it. If you don't, then you might want to look at moving on to something else. Or you could find that you miss it, and enjoy it significantly more when you come back.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 22:59

Much like Overwatch though once you lose the pulse of the meta it's a grind to try to figure it out again. Starting back up would be as hard as trying to start competitive League or something.

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 23:09

Thanks for the rant.

As a guy who played some form of Warhammer starting back in probably '97 up till around '13 when I rage quite over Matt Ward codex creeps, disappointment with GW in general, lack of a scene locally, etc... which prompted my flash sale of everything (pretty sure I've got 1 box of mini's left in the house).

Unless you're A) seriously strapped for cash, or B) absolutely certain you will not want back in, keep the models, for at least 6 months of your hiatus. After 6 months, or even a year, if you haven't felt the call of the table top, let them go. If you feel like you might get the fire back, you should keep them.

I seriously regret pushing all mine off as now I'm looking at the long climb back to a playable force.

(all this said, I am almost certain DE will not be that force because the current codex/rule/etc... leave me stumped on what makes a usable army, but Harlies, Corsairs, and CWE all have lists that sprout just by skimming the dex, so I get that frustration too)
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Thu Feb 09 2017, 23:20

I wouldn't even take a break. What you need isn't time away. You just need is to actively adjust your perspective. I have actually avoided arguing with you about your concept of BIS, because it wasn't important enough to me to try to convince you that just because 95% of the internet says something is BIS doesn't mean that's accurate, or that it's the end-all, be-all of opinions.

Start looking at list-building and army composition as an art-form in and of itself, and don't buy into the BS the majority of people spout online. Look for quality, not quantity of opinions. If 95% of people know so much, why aren't they all winning tournaments? What happens is that they all adopt the strategy the GOOD player used to win the last 2 tournaments, then they all run his idea, and the innovator who came up with it has moved on to something else, and no one wins tournaments with it any more because everyone is running it.

I notice that you get pretty frustrated with the commonly perceived BIS stuff, like people running wraithknights, warp spider hosts, and scatbikes with a jetseer council. The fact is, these things are BIS mostly when they're first introduced and people aren't as prepared to deal with them. Are scatbikes good? Well sure they are. Windriders in general are probably the best troop-slot unit in the game, to be honest. But they hold that title for a different reason than you think, and scatter lasers actually work contrary to what makes them so great. They are a 51 point troop slot unit that can have obsec with a 3+ armour save and 4+ jink that can move up to 60" a turn to secure objectives. Putting 3 scatter lasers on them makes them far more expensive, makes them a target(thus less able to survive to secure objectives), makes you as a player more careful with them(thus hesitant to secure an objective and put them in harm's way), and just generally exchanges all the things that make them great for an admittedly considerable amount of S6 shooting.

I think you may not have had so much luck with the BIS Eldar list because your perception that people who play Eldar with X units suck but just crutch on OP stuff is, quite simply, inaccurate. Wraithknights are underpriced. Other than that, in the current meta, nothing is wrong or OP with Craftworld Eldar. That wasn't the case when the codex first released, because the Eldar codex was among the first to release in this new era of higher powered codices. So what happened was, everyone thought the Eldar were OP when they first came out(correctly so), but then as the game continued to evolve and factions got caught up in the age of GMCs and D weapons, Eldar, while still certainly competitive, have ceased being OP. But people still act like Eldar are OP and their players scum, because for a time period(very brief, actually), they WERE OP.

I think if you let go of some of your bitterness towards craftworld players, and other players in general for having stances that don't necessarily match up with your own, you may enjoy the hobby more. I don't mean to preach at you, and I apologize for the long post. I just don't want to see you go over something that could ultimately just lead you to a revelation where you actually enjoy the hobby more.

Look at listbuilding as an opportunity to innovate. Don't get so hung up on what people think is BIS. I was at the first major tournament where a guy brought tons of warp spiders. He did very well. I think he got 2nd place. Lists like that tend to get people wins once or twice before the meta adjusts to the 20% of players that start using the list. Don't be one of that 20%. Be one of the first 2 guys to have ever run the list, before people knew it was crazy good. Once people adjust to the fact that so many people run that "BIS" unit, it's no longer that great because people are prepared for it. They have both units and strategies prepared for when they run into it, because it's a common tactic. Focus on being uncommon. That's probably why you've won with DE, because you're more comfortable doing your own thing, and not giving a crap.

You basically told me to eat a big one when I told you I didn't think mandrakes were good, or worth taking except when you didn't have anything else to spend points on. You affirmed that taking multiple units of them works for you, and that you'll be continuing to do it. And THAT is what you need to do to stand out, and be a competitor in 40k: Have the courage to be different, and try new and unique things, despite the internet telling you what is "best" or "awful".

You probably lost with Craftworld Eldar because you're not comfortable enough with them to be innovative, instead relying on what the internet told you was best. Do some breathing exercises. Come to peace with the craftworld eldar, and give them another shot without any preconceived notions about what is most powerful, or that you think CWE are OP. Try some things that sound cool to YOU rather than going with "BIS" stuff. Maybe you'll find that you like CWE a bit more than you thought, and suddenly the Ynnari stuff won't be so bad.

Based on my previous interactions with you, I think that you forming your own lists and ideas and trying them out will be most useful to you, but if you're interested, I'd be happy to critique some lists for you, or help you put some things together. Either way, I hope you get over your slump and stay in the hobby.

On the bright side, if everything else I said fell on deaf ears, I'm almost certain DE will get a new codex within 6 months. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 00:18

Seconded.

So that I'm contributing: Best in slot is a myth designed to simplify the game because the vast majority of players are god awful. Best in slot is inherently contingent upon what you took in the other slots and detachments. 1850 pts of synergy will trounce common BIS lists any day of the week because they generally aren't leveraging for synergy and instead see wide swaths of the list cut out at a time because the synergistic list is designed to cripple you while you built for "raw power" in order to brute force victories.
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 00:52

Before I go on I want to say that my "opinions" on the meta and BIS are not just "what people say on the internet". They're what the math bears out. They're what local tournament winners mention in conversation after the game. They're what the top tables at the NOVA GT drunkenly banter about between rounds while handing me pina coladas and Jim Beam from an in-suite bar at 11 in the morning (god I love NOVA). I don't even go on dakkadakka or spikeybits and I take no competitive advice from /tg/, everything I get comes straight from people who've been there and done that.

Quote :
I notice that you get pretty frustrated with the commonly perceived BIS stuff, like people running wraithknights, warp spider hosts, and scatbikes with a jetseer council.

I'm not frustrated at them being BIS, I've just come to accept it as a reality. The frustration comes from KNOWING you're going to be facing those lists and not having access to the toolkit necessary to handle them, as Dark Eldar have no answer to a mass of 36" S6. Daemons can handle them, which is why they are the new hot s***. Also Eldar are OP, they have the strongest base codex and the most flexibility in list creation. No one other than Daemons and possibly Space Marines can field more diverse competitive lists.

Quote :
I think if you let go of some of your bitterness towards craftworld players, and other players in general for having stances that don't necessarily match up with your own, you may enjoy the hobby more.

I'm not bitter toward CWE players or people who have a different stance than I do. What people do for fun is their business and I'm glad their having it. But if someone tries to argue that there is not a BIS when clearly there is, I'm going to call a spade a spade.

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Look at listbuilding as an opportunity to innovate. Don't get so hung up on what people think is BIS.

You sound like one of those business professors who tries to turn a class of 30 odd teenagers into entrepreneurs, starting their own businesses and not becoming "wage slaves". Something like 90% of businesses fail in the first 5 years, and another like 90% of the remainder fail in the next 5, but you never hear them mention that. I'm willing to bet similar numbers run with competitive lists, and it's only through the sheer number of darts being thrown at the board that people manage to get real meta-rocking winners from time to time. I'd have to play in *a lot* of competitive events and lose *a lot* (and spend a lot in models to run all that cheese) to find something that good, or I could use the current meta and get most of the way there by just netlisting and practicing. The only reason the same people keep placing well in tournaments is because they all have a bazillion models between them and they swap armies before every game, so they can run literally anything they want. It's a running joke that Nick Nanavati's Daemons have been like 4+ people's army and his big bag-o-daemons is "the summoning bag".

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That's probably why you've won with DE, because you're more comfortable doing your own thing, and not giving a crap.

Dark Eldar are the definition of a spoiler army, as much so as a 5 Knight list. A 5 Knight list is bad, it won't win, but it will screw over the guy who isn't prepared for it. My Dark Eldar lists have a comparable W/L ratio to that of an all Knight list. I don't chalk that up to me being a good player or especially effective with DE, I chalk it up to some people not being prepared to deal with my list and simply not having the tools.

Quote :
You basically told me to eat a big one when I told you I didn't think mandrakes were good, or worth taking except when you didn't have anything else to spend points on. You affirmed that taking multiple units of them works for you, and that you'll be continuing to do it. And THAT is what you need to do to stand out, and be a competitor in 40k: Have the courage to be different, and try new and unique things, despite the internet telling you what is "best" or "awful".

The fact you cannot see the utility in having a 36 point unit of stealth-shrouded infiltrators with S4 says more about you than it does me.

Quote :
You probably lost with Craftworld Eldar because you're not comfortable enough with them to be innovative, instead relying on what the internet told you was best.

No, I lost with them because I'm not a good player. People who played me told me they had never seen that army run like I ran it. I innovated with them because while I *knew* the army was good but I didn't know how the people who made the Eldar MSU lists actually played them, so I played them as I saw fit, which was ultra-aggressive as if they were DE. It made perfect sense to me to charge a Farseer with Warp Spiders because hey, I can't fail morale as long as I have an exarch. I shot Wraithknights with them because wounding on 3s is pretty good against a GMC. I nearly tabled the guy who ended up winning the tournament, but I lost instead because I played badly and made stupid mistakes.

Also the Ynnari stuff isn't bad, just the opposite, it's like CWE on crack. If you want a competitive list there is literally no reason not to run it because you can just plug-and-chug an Eldar netlist and suddenly it gets amazing new rules. It's just boring that it's the same BUT BETTER (that is, no drawback to running it) and the fluff from what I've seen is atrocious.

Quote :
I'd be happy to critique some lists for you, or help you put some things together.

Coming from a guy who locks his own lists away I consider this disingenuous.

Look I'm just trying to nip this in the bud before I become "that guy" who sits around the hobby shop and hardly ever plays. Where the only thing they do is argue rules belligerently from the side of the game table and complain about the current state of the game to people who are trying to have a good time. I already about have an aneurysm when I see people running their loyalists as CSM after the new book dropped half-decent rules in their lap.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 02:51

I think this post is a good example of the fact that you're limiting yourself based on your own perceptions of how things are, which significantly limits your growth potential. You say you're not a good player, but then are completely unwilling to consider what either myself or @Amorrowlyday think here. If you're bad, but you're saying you know all the answers better than us, what does that say about us?

Your perceptions aren't shared by at least 2 people who have readily agreed just prior to your post, and who are fairly competent players. I've never had anyone attempt to claim I was a bad player, so if that is your position, I congratulate you on a first.

@TeenageAngst wrote:

You sound like one of those business professors who tries to turn a class of 30 odd teenagers into entrepreneurs, starting their own businesses and not becoming "wage slaves". Something like 90% of businesses fail in the first 5 years, and another like 90% of the remainder fail in the next 5, but you never hear them mention that.

That may be because I am a successful entrepreneur and business owner who DOES believe people who are capable of doing so would be far better off starting their own businesses than working for other people. And for the record, included in those figures is every single business name that is registered and never used. That doesn't mean the ACTUAL failure rate is that high. It's just the number of businesses that get registered, then get cancelled later. Depending on where you live in the US, you can register a business for between $20.00 and $200.00. With the first of my 2 businesses, I personally registered 5 different business names in my state while I was unsure what I wanted to name my business. That means that I personally contributed 4 "failed businesses" to the tally, and only 1 successful business, despite the fact that I only ever operated 1 of them, and it has been tremendously successful.

Since registering a business name is the cheapest and easiest part of "starting a business", it's also often the only part of starting a business anyone ever gets to. People get a bright idea. They spend 2 hours coming up with a company name and registering it. Then they never follow through on it, and eventually cancel the business registration. Boom. Failed business. Over my life, I have had at least 10 such "businesses", despite never having followed through on trying to get them started beyond registering the name. But they all count as "failed businesses".

Which brings us to misleading statistics. Misleading statistics are everywhere, even in 40k. Just because the math seems to indicate something doesn't mean there aren't numerous other factors at work that are difficult to accurately represent mathematically. Sort of like your mandrakes. They are a mathematically bad unit, yet they can leverage tactical abilities that can't be easily represented via math. I do recognize their potential for certain things, which is why I commended you in my original wall of text on sticking to your guns when I said they were bad. I don't personally believe they're good in DE due to the price of other DE and how it all fits together, but I do recognize the general utility that their abilities would seem to provide.

I'm sure you won't, but if you ever change your mind, I'd still be happy to assist you with list-building. As for "locking away my own lists", I've got 2000+ posts of mostly listbuilding and tactics assistance, half of which were made BEFORE I stopped posting my own lists, so there are plenty of old lists of mine floating around, and plenty of success stories of people using lists I helped create to great success.

The fact is, list building is one of my greatest strengths. Insofar as practical, playing experience goes, I have no doubt that there are plenty of people on this very site who have far more games played than I, and thus far more practical experience playing games. That often manifests in faster decision-making on their part, where I have to spend more time calculating, and therefor they are able to look at the greater tactical picture while I am stuck considering the micro of it all. That is changing as I play more, but I don't have as much play time as I would like. I only get a game in every month or two these days. I've only been playing 40k since 6th edition, though I've read a lot. Despite this personal weakness of mine, I've still managed to win about 90% of my games, largely due to superior list-building.

Anyhow, against a much more seasoned player, I would undoubtedly lose, were we fielding completely equal lists. So, that being the case, and with listbuilding being my strongest advantage, it only makes sense that I would attempt to protect that advantage. I only stopped posting my competitive list ideas when I started competing nationally, and others who also competed nationally stole my list idea without giving credit. If you don't understand that, I'm sorry.

But regardless, I don't know why I am typing all this. It's obvious you're not interested in what I have to say. Good luck in being more happy, whether you decide to stick it out or go.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 03:53

@Blind_Baku Sorry I missed this post. I will probably withhold selling the army off until the summer when 8th hits. If the new edition and/or codex looks terrible I don't see any reason to drag myself through the dirt for another 2-3 years. If it looks serviceable maybe I'll have more fun.

@BetrayTheWorld I'm not saying you or anyone else is a bad player. I'm just repeating what high ranked ITC players say in regards to list building. Now, they might be wrong. As I said, I almost tabled the winner of the tournament in the first round with his own army were it not for some dumb f***-ups and that's not the first time something like that's happened. Clearly, they are not infallible. However, the point is I did lose all those games and I have never won an event, even small local ones. Granted my "small local ones" tend to attract the NOVA circuit looking for sparring partners but numbers on paper I'm a s*** player.

Quote :
business ramble

You're missing the forest for the trees. My point was not about the accuracy of business failure rate statistics. It was about the quality of the advice being dispensed. Even if those numbers are skewed, telling a group of inexperienced teenagers to not bother finding a job and instead try to build a business is about as dangerous as telling a guy who's never turned a wrench to buy a shop manual, rent a cherry picker, and do that engine swap himself. Likewise, telling someone to run only lists they came up with themselves without a proper appreciation for and experience with the current meta is only going to produce GIGO. The alternative is you netlist, or at least look at what is currently the BIS option, and go from there. It won't win the game for you, but it'll get you most of the way and get you in the ballpark of where you need to be.

There are a lot of conventional things I disagree with whole heartedly when it comes to list building beyond insisting on the godly points efficiency of Mandrakes. For instance, I think Exorcists for Sisters of Battle are a trap. Scatbikes and grav turn them into Swiss cheese, even if they're hiding behind a VSG. I much prefer Immolator spam with small girl squads with melta bombs and special weapons. MSU Sisters is, IMO, the most slept on list currently in the game save for perhaps Slaaneshi Daemon spam. If SOB come in plastic I'm going to lose an entire paycheck and probably make that money back in winnings.

And I do value your input, I just disagree with the notion that not running BIS is the way forward. In causal games yeah of course I can just run whatever I want it's anything goes, but that doesn't translate to competitive. Guardian Battlehost for example is fun and effective but if I brought it to a competitive event I'd be eating my own teeth for dinner. When I go to events, I want a shot at winning. Like the old saying goes, no one ever got fired for buying IBM. No one ever got laughed at for bringing scatbikes. No one was ever told they were playing their army wrong when they brought Warp Spiders.
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:10

I think this is a side of 40k that every players needs to see. Thank you.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 05:11

I play Eldar in almost every major GT I enter, in some combination. I've always done well. I have never once fielded scatterbikes, warp spiders, jetseer council, or D-cannon batteries. I've only ever used a wraithknight in 1 tournament(you get extra points for killing GMCs if you don't bring one). In my experience, synergy and a good plan of action is worth more than the brute force of BIS units, so much so that I've rarely seen need to use them. Understand that I haven't avoided them because I want to avoid using powerful units. I've used them in practice games and I don't require the perception that I'm playing on "hard mode" in order to feel good about my play. Quite the contrary, I am, heart and soul, a WAAC competitive player. I believe army selection and unit selection is just as important a factor as listbuilding or tactics on the tabletop, and I see no point in selecting anything but the best units for the job. I just don't think those particular units are as valuable as people make them out to be when placed side by side with other options, and my performance without them has reinforced that belief.

Don't get me wrong, recognizing value in models/units is very important. But there is a lot of value in places that people rarely look, because said value isn't all on the surface. It might require an extra step to extract that value. Or maybe an extra 5 steps. But THAT is where greatness is found. Anyone can look at two statlines and recognize that T5 is better than T4. Being able to recognize relationships, and how that T4 can somehow be better than the T5 is what I'm talking about.

A quick example: In my opinion, the most undervalued model in the entire CWE codex is the vaul's wrath battery. For 30 points, you get 2 guardians and a 2 wound gun(vibro or shadow weaver) with a 3+ that makes any infantry attached to it T7 vs shooting for as long as a single gun remains in the unit. I've made this a staple of my list-building, because you get so much value for so few points. If you deduct the cost of the 2 guardians, you're paying only 12 points for the gun platform. Now, I've been talking about the value in these models since 6th edition all over the internet, but people have largely ignored what I've said. They hear me say it, but haven't really heard many other people talking about how great they are, so they don't pay any heed. So across 2 codex versions, they haven't really changed much(except for the D-version), and stayed the same price. After I got into competitive play, I stopped trying to convince the internet of their utility, and instead just gave individual people advice to add them into lists when appropriate, and I use them virtually every competitive game using shadow weavers if I don't have a dedicated farseer w/guide and prescience, and vibro cannons if I do.

A full 90 point unit of vaul's batteries behind an aegis or ruin is about as hard to kill with shooting as a wraithknight. And when paired with a dedicated guide/prescience farseer, 6 vibro cannons will pretty consistently put out 3 S9 AP2 hits and 2 S8 AP3 hits, all with pinning, for 280 points, plus a psychic shriek, while having 26 wounds that are T7 vs. shooting. Your opponent basically HAS to assault them or just let them shoot their shots all game, because shooting them to death is a losing battle. This allows you to force your opponent into choosing the best of 2 bad choices, as you have at least 1 midfield melee threat to discourage assaults against your artillery line, which means they will likely have to dedicate more than it's worth to try to assault them. And the PERCEPTION is already that they're not that big of a threat anyhow. So, by the time your opponent realizes you're going to twin-link those 6 vibro-cannons every turn, they've already spent 1 or 2 turns ignoring them, and they'd have to shift their strategy even more to effectively deal with them, which is likely a losing battle, because at that point, you've already punished their original mistake.

My stock–in–trade as a player is basically punishing traditional notions of what is good and what isn't. The farseer/vibro combo is a rather simple combination that I make use of effectively, but many of my tactics require LOTs of planning and redundancy that makes giving instructions on how to run the list very important. You almost need a complex flowchart to run one of my lists, haha.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the business stuff...You probably won't believe me based on your statements, but it would be more lucrative for a recent H.S. grad to get a permit from the city to solicit residences(if their city allows it), then buy a bunch of candy bars in bulk for 50 cents each, and go door to door selling them for 2 dollars than to take a minimum wage job, or basically any job making less than 12 dollars an hour.

And as simple as that sounds, that is starting your own business.

Starting a business isn't "dangerous" at all, unless you're talking about investing tens of thousands of dollars into something complicated. Illegal immigrants come here, and often start their own businesses making more than 50% of citizens doing simple things like buying a squeegee and a bucket and going business to business offering to wash their windows for 10 dollars. Most businesses have petty cash, and many don't mind outsourcing windows if they don't already have a steady guy doing it. I've seen people do it, then form a route and suddenly a guy who barely speaks English is making $350.00 a day washing windows. There are plenty of ways to make your own work more valuable than you're paid while making 20 dollars or less per hour. Being underpaid is PART of being an employee. If they paid you what you were worth, it wouldn't be worth it to hire you. I'd say any given employee makes their employer at least 5 times what they're paid. It just takes a little creativity and a lot of self-motivation to figure out how to cut out the employer and enjoy the fruits of your own labor. One simply must embrace capitalism.

That said, it's hard going door to door to sell candy bars every day when you have enough money in your pocket, it's raining outside, and you're in no danger of losing your job if you decide not to go. And therein lies the problem. If you DON'T go, and make MORE money than you need to be comfortable, one crisis hits and you're out of business because you don't have enough money to go buy candy bars. Some people NEED to be "wage slaves" in order to function properly. Some people don't have the self-motivation for independent success, and need external stimuli in order to be productive when they're comfortable. They require the threat of losing their job to motivate them to get up in the morning. They require the security of someone ELSE to make the responsible decisions, so that if they blow all their money partying and seeing that sports event or concert, their business doesn't tank. They just have to be broke until their next paycheck. And that's ok. The world needs those people too. For everyone else, whether "everyone else" is a greater or lesser number, there is a better way.

Sorry for the book. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 05:49

In a surprising turn of events, I think I agree with Betray, at least partially. Innovation beats regurgitation. (Also, knowledge of your army, experience against your opponent's, and tactical acumen will often overcome perceived army imbalances.)

From what you've described, at least from what I've seen you describe, you have a great deal of tactical skill (being able to recognize your mistakes is a big indicator of that--players without this tool set are often left wondering, "how could I possible have won?!") and a great deal of experience with Dark Eldar.

But if you're not having fun, of course, none of that crap matters. If playing games is like pulling teeth, even when you win, then what's the point, n'est pas? I frequently suffer burnout myself. Since I've started playing, I wound up taking a six to twelve week hiatus every year, almost always in the winter. (Often a smaller break in the middle of the year, too.)
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 05:52

I don't think anyone doesn't like Vaul's Wrath. Almost every Eldar player I know uses it as an anchor for null deployment and then zone denial thereafter. When I ran against them I tended to obliterate them with spiders though, then again I treated them as an ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY THREAT because I too read their entry in the codex and overestimated their firepower. A blessing of ignorance and inexperience is I don't have bad habits I suppose. The unit I think people overlook is the Hemlock. It's got d-weapons, it can make morale tests a nightmare, and it can shriek and shoot at 2 different targets, but people like their Warp Hunters too much. That doesn't help me play DE more effectively though, nor does it make my Eldar list better since I included a Hemlock and still lost.

As for businesses, yes, it's easy to start a business. It's hard to set up a registered corporation, maintain a balance sheet, do the taxes, etc. Also as a wage slave it's condescending attitudes like that that made me loathe the idea of being an entrepreneur. I was all for it when I was a bright eyed young Libertarian. Then I went to college, studied accounting, economics, and business, and learned that the market is dominated by leverage, and capitalizing on that leverage is what generates profit, and if you don't have leverage you don't have a business. This is why small mom and pop stores go bust when the Wally World moves in and why Chinese drop-shippers dominate Etsy now instead of the small business handicrafts it was known for. Yes, I could hock my manual labor for myself, but that's what I'm doing right now for a paycheck. Except I also get regular hours, benefits, vacation days, and a retirement fund. Most of all though, I'm learning on the job and that is invaluable. Any business you want to start you want experience in, and the best way to get that experience is on someone else's dime.

edit: @Jimsolo Innovation is definitely good but so is the old adage, if it ain't broke don't fix it. And I enjoy winning games, and I enjoy losing if the game is good. What I don't enjoy is people constantly complaining when I show up for a causal game with an Eldar list, or people laughing at the fact I brought pure DE to competitive event, or being told I'm using the wrong army. No one said anything about my Eldar at HITNY.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 16:09

A business I worked for once slipped up and let me see one of their reports. They kept track of pretty much every metric possible for each employee. It was a call center, and they were paid per call we fielded. When I looked at my name on the report, I saw that I had personally made the company $30,000.00 dollars that month, and we were only 3 weeks into the month, with me working about 30 hours a week. I WAS one of their top 20 performing agents in a center that employed about 800 people, but still, I made them 30k in 3 weeks, and they paid me 11 dollars an hour to do it. So I made them 30 TIMES what they paid me. Now, I've since been a general manager for 2 businesses and have run my own businesses as well, so I understand that they had to pay their overhead out of that, but in a business where a phone and a computer terminal is essentially all they need to maintain per agent, the maintenance per agent isn't very high. Our product was a service that I personally provided while on the phone with customers, so even if it somehow cost them 2K a month to provide me a space to work for them, they were still making 27K in profit off of me in 3 weeks. That was the moment I realized I was approaching it all wrong. No one is ever going to GIVE you a job that's going to make your dreams come true. I realized I'd need to forge my own path if I ever wanted to earn what I was worth.

From an employer perspective, the entire trick to employing people is to pay them the least amount possible in order to motivate them to generate the most profit possible for you. Paying people well is good in that it makes them happier in being more comfortable, but there is a line, beyond which people don't get considerably happier, but they have more resources to break off from your business and start their own. The trick for a business is finding that delicate point between meeting your employee's comfort/living needs, but remaining shy of giving them excess resources they could use to quit and start their own business. In that respect, among others, you're right, business is about leverage. This applies mostly to jobs that don't necessarily require a lot of education. It's the recipe to make a wage slave. But you're wrong that you're already hocking your labor yourself by having a job. You've got an agent(your employer) hocking your labor for you, and taking a massive cut. Even McDonald's employees likely make their employer a similarly absurd amount of money compared to what they're paid.

That's the ultimate trick to making capitalism work for you. Get other people to go work to make you money. But in order to do that, you need capital yourself. And the best way to get the most you can is to freelance your labor, unless you have a highly valuable university-derived skill that you can market to a company that will pay you well in a job. People who are in debt due to student loans and don't have a very marketable degree are actually in some of the worst situations, because by taking student loans and going to college in the US today, if you don't take a major that is in very high demand, you virtually guarantee that you're going to be a wage-slave for life while trying to pay back those loans.

Anyhow, this business talk is off-topic, and I don't think you care about my success story or my business advice any more than I care about you telling me how it's impossible to succeed when I've already been successful. So we can just cease discussing it.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 19:35

Quote :
Anyhow, this business talk is off-topic, and I don't think you care about my success story or my business advice any more than I care about you telling me how it's impossible to succeed when I've already been successful. So we can just cease discussing it.

You can't make this kind of a statement after posting 3 paragraphs about exactly that. This is the kind of thing you post BEFORE you write those 3 paragraphs so you don't look like some kinda nudnik trying to get the last word in.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:14

It was a statement of frustration with myself for having taken the time to write out those 3 paragraphs. I don't think "getting the last word" is important when your goal is pure benevolence, just trying to help someone else. So feel free to have all the last words you like.

If you ever feel like my opinion would be helpful to you, feel free to ask for it. Take care man. I hope things start going better for you in life. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:26

Quote :
People who are in debt due to student loans and don't have a very marketable degree are actually in some of the worst situations, because by taking student loans and going to college in the US today, if you don't take a major that is in very high demand, you virtually guarantee that you're going to be a wage-slave for life while trying to pay back those loans.

Well that right there is the situation I'm in, so by your own admission, I'm up a creek without a paddle. The irony is that I had to go to college to learn the economic principles necessary to realize that going to college is a rub.

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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Sat Feb 11 2017, 17:22

Could we please stop with the US specific politic talk? I am currently fighting the urge to participate and I don't want to sound like an arrogant douchebag....
Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Sun Feb 12 2017, 02:06

@CptMetal no one here is talking about politics we're talking about business ventures and the expected return on a college education. Granted that's in no way related to a battle report about Orks, but neither was pretty much every other response in this topic.

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PostSubject: Re: I lost to Orks today.   Sun Feb 12 2017, 09:11

Yeah, you're right. But related stuff that gets mentioned like student loans (wtf? What civilised society let's the kids pay for education??) or the quite political opinions about being a "wage slave" (Last time I checked, in Germany were unions that even got a member in the executive board).
Not to mention the social and health care systems that ensure that you don't fall into nothingness when you loose your job because in a society you should take care of each other. Not try to screw you over.
And that's politics.
Rant over
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