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 Lhameans as an assault unit

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 04:33

ok so i have played 2 games with Lhameans and i have been impressed. 9 of them with a succubus or an archon seems very good and i have taken down things in total of usually more than their  points. so me being new i don't see why more people arnt running them as a unit? while they need some care they they can also be very good if used well.


Last edited by sumguy777 on Thu Feb 09 2017, 09:16; edited 2 times in total
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 04:35

They're basically like slightly better Wyches, which is to say they're okay at one specific thing, but absolutely terrible at nearly everything else.

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 04:54

they have a 2+ poison melee attack that is not even close to the wyches str 3 attack against the assault toughness 4. 2+ to wound instead of a 5+ the lose the 4+ invul but you are killing alot more of them before they attack. they took on a 400 point terminator unit and won (with the aid of 3 reavers) i mean besides them costing 18 dollars a model i dont see why they arnt a good close combat unit?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 05:05

Yeah, there is actually a thread somewhere that shows most DE units and their effectiveness in melee, point for point. I believe Lhameans actually were #1 on that list, closely followed by grotesques.

If I recall correctly, the reason more people don't run them is twofold:

1. The official models are expensive, money-wise.
2. Grotesques have a lower offensive output but a lot more surviveability, particularly if taken as part of the grotesquerie.

In order to make them more resilient, while still having more offensive potential than grotesques against most things, some people discussed mixed squads with Lhameans and Sslyth, making the units T5. This works, but does make their offense closer to grots, and still runs into problem 1 above, since Sslyth are overpriced also.

I believe the thread that did the unit comparison was put together by either @Fisheyes or @Kantalla.

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 05:33

yes i remember reading that post. suitability is sketchy but i used them like a kamazazi squad after killing a another unit in conjunction with others. then killing the terminator unit and tieing it up for several rounds. ii think the grots are better personally but i feel the Lhameans deserve much more respect than they are getting. i mean 90 points to take down a 200 or even 300 point unit i will make that trade all day long. while fragile i think they could be utilized a little more some how. I dont own them either so i used my wyches as stand ins. nobody seems to care since they are essentially the same model.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 07:08

I would not really recommend just Lhamaeans as a unit because they are so incredibly fragile for not much mathematical advantage to Grotesques. Your proposal including a character also impacts the points efficiency of the unit.

Compare the following two options:

Succubus (Archite Glaive)
9 Lhamaeans
Raider (Night Shields)
255 points

4 Grotesques including Aberration (Scissorhand)
Raider (Night Shields)
235 points

Charging against Space Marines, ignoring any losses to overwatch and combat drugs / latest experiments:

Option 1
Succubus 5 attacks 10/3 hits 5/3 unsaved
Lhamaeans 27 attacks 27/2 hits 45/4 wounds 15/4 unsaved
Total 5.42 wounds (2.12 wounds per 100 points)

Option 2
Grotesques 21 attacks 21/2 hits 28/3 wounds 28/9 unsaved
Aberration (shortcutting the math) 16/9 unsaved
Total 4.89 wounds (2.00 wounds per 100 points)

That is a small advantage to the Lhamaeans (Grotesques would win had I chosen an Agoniser), but add in overwatch or a target in cover, and the Grotesques will be better off after a single charge.

Given the choice I would recommend Grotesques over the Lhamaean unit every time.

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 07:23

maybe i am misunderstood. I think the Grotesques are better than the Lhamaeans however, i think there may be another purpose for them. perhaps a unit of 5 in a venom to sneak in and kill a big tough guy or a unit of high toughness models. plus don't forget you can shoot before you charge with poison pistols as well. i understand they will prolly die but i bet they will take out more points than the 50 you spent on them before they do. a unit of jet bikes to soak up the over watch on the charge complements this nicely.

thoughts?

edit- i understand we already have a ton of poison models i just feel that against some armies fighting in cc would be beneficial compared to others.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 08:05

For a little unit like that, I would suggest 3 Sslyth 2 Lhamaeans instead. Slightly less efficient, but way tougher.

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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 09:22

but thats not a little unit anymore thats 95 points almost twice as much points as the 5 i said. and at 95 points i would rather take another unit of grots for 10 more points.

idk next time i build an army where i normally have 1 Lhamaean as my hq im gonna add 4 more and see what it does. i just kinda keep thinking that there has to be some way to use the court to make them good and not just a copy cat of another unit.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Thu Feb 09 2017, 23:23

If your willing to shell out 50 pts plus the transport for a court but no more they should be 2 medusae no if's and's or buts about that.
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Fri Feb 10 2017, 01:17

@Betraytheworld, thanks for the shoutout. @Kantalla, I know you are quite proficient at running numbers, so you are more than aware that the comparison of Lhameans+IC vs Grots is not fair. If anything you would need to compare Lhameans vs Grots+IC, because the Grots REQUIRE an IC to keep them from running away (and comparing 1 unit of Lhamean to half a Grotesquery is mathematically irresponsible). But I now see that you are basing that on a statement by @sumguy777, so I will try to calm down Wink

Just let me state that THE ENTIRE PURPOSE of the Lhameans is that they dont require an IC babysitter, unlike the Grots (who rank around the same in terms of damage output/unit cost).

With the new Ynnead faction, I think we will have a place for Lhameans as true glass-cannons. A cheap unit that hits like a ton of bricks, but cheap enough that we can sacrifice for a Soulburst action.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Fri Feb 10 2017, 03:46

@fisheyes - the comparison is slightly unfair, I will agree. If you are happy to use the Haemonculus as a WWP drop for Allies then it is not really a tax, although that does restrict the units you can take dramatically.

Without quibbling too much about the math and what to include in the analysis, I think the following statements are reasonable:
1) Lhamaeans and Grotesques have a similar damage output on a similar points basis
2) Grotesques are much hardier than Lhamaeans

That gives a major edge to Grotesques. There are some creative ways to get around the Lhamaeans weaknesses (mixing in Sslyth), and the Haemonculus from the Grotesquerie would be a good addition to that unit if you want a strong melee army.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:02

Against T4 it's 2+ vs 3+ with rerolls. Against bikes which are far more common it's actually 2+ vs 4+ without rerolls. Lahmians straight up have more offensive sting. Grotesques are T5 for 11.66 points per wound is the problem. A lahmian and a sslyth collectively have the same CC attacks albeit without rerolls as a 5-6 rampage grotesque, the same wounds, toughness, and a splinter carbine. It just doesn't scale right because as soon as the (1) sslyth dies you're T3.
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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:33

@fisheyes wrote:


Just let me state that THE ENTIRE PURPOSE of the Lhameans is that they dont require an IC babysitter, unlike the Grots (who rank around the same in terms of damage output/unit cost).

With the new Ynnead faction, I think we will have a place for Lhameans as true glass-cannons. A cheap unit that hits like a ton of bricks, but cheap enough that we can sacrifice for a Soulburst action.

2nd the first statement

i like the idea of that a quick unit that gets in dose damage then create more attacks to further your plan causing even more damage when they die
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Fri Feb 10 2017, 07:07

I love those single lahmians and beasts/beastmasters.
I always thought they were great since I need things to stop those awful orc and Tau overwatches. I just used to throw one in to eat a unit of overwatch. But now when it dies it gives me an extra round of shooting Very Happy Perfect.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Lhameans as an assault unit   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:19

Eh, we now have better things to spend our FA slots on (scourges getting double shooting, reavers/beastpacks getting extra movement) over the single Khmare.

But for 115 pts we get 5 Lhameans in a dual SC venom. Venom shoots stuff while it can, and boosts up to grab objectives when necessary. After the boost it dies, and Lhamean jump out. Now we have the option of using the buddy system and potentially getting some extra charges in, or leaving them out to dry (and saving our units for later).

This boost for the small (but capable) lhamean squad will make me honestly consider taking them in the future. If only we didnt loose ObSec by "following" ynnead...
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