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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 23:49

In this case both apply, but this tangent is off topic.

To get back on topic: If you want to field a Riptide wing consisting of Carnifexes then so long as you'v acquired the right guns I'd have absolutely no problem with it, and would rule in your favor if challenged in an event I'm judging,provided you acquired the correct weapon bits or otherwise suitable representations and your carnifex occupies the same volumetric space as a riptide.

I'm considered radical on this topic though because of my "overly broad" interpretation of the frag grenade rule.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 23:59

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "frag grenade rule"?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 00:11

Sure: Nowhere in the rules or FAQ's does it actually specify that Frag grenades are assault grenades, page 180. The only place it does so is in the fluff paragraph prior to the entry for assault grenades. Even the contained weapon profile entry does not refer to itself as a frag grenade, instead it says: assault grenade and has a statline. That statline being identical to a frag grenade's is irrelevant: It is not the profile of a frag grenade. Plasma grenades, and even Corsair Shadowwave grenades specify that they are assault and defensive grenades respectively.

Frag grenades do not.

So only one of 2 things can be true: Either xenos armies, and I contend all armies, can use whatever bits they would like to represent a given weapon as that same sort of pre-weapon fluff text in many cases explicitly states that they come in a variety of form factors, or Space Marines don't have assault grenades.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 01:52

Yeah, OK. I've always ruled that you could use whatever bits to represent a given weapon, so long as there is justification for it in the fluff. All my agonizers are swords because I think the whips look stupid, and the book says agonizers come in different forms: swords, whips, knives, etc.

I never made the connection with frag grenades though. That's a good one to keep in my back pocket in case my sword-agonizer is ever challenged...if I ever run one again, haha. Very Happy

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 01:55

Yeah you sort of self select out of that population by not strictly playing space marines. Imagine that, the folks who have the easiest access to individual weapon bits are the ones who complain the loudest about it. <<<SHOCKED>>>
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 02:09

Omyslaanesh I would sell another fragment of my soul to have a "Dark Eldar Weapons Pack." Something like 2 or 3 each of Heat Lances, Haywire Blasters, Dark Lances, Blasters, and Wych weapons would be awesome IMO.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 11:05

Yeah I've always been in the camp that the rules themselves are nothing more than statlines, and only bare a cursory connection to the models they're supposed to represent. Provided you make it clear enough which models represent which stats, have a decent fluff explanation for why the representation is fitting, and your modelling doesn't confer an unfair advantage (for instance using a marine-sized model for a Carnifex statline) you're free to use each statline to represent whatever you want.

The gold-standard I usually use is this excellent Kroot Scavenger Kindred converted army: http://www.gowarhead.com/2015/05/i-am-kroot-kindred-spirits.html

From what I can tell (it's in Finnish and my google translate doesn't work at work), it uses Dark Eldar rules to represent a Kroot force. Each conversion is recognisable as a Dark Eldar unit, without a single Dark Eldar unit being used.

Now, that might be more difficult to play against for someone who's used to seeing Dark Eldar models, but with a quick reference sheet would be absolutely fine. Plus, it's utterly fantastic as a converted army Smile

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 13:51

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Sure: Nowhere in the rules or FAQ's does it actually specify that Frag grenades are assault grenades, page 180. The only place it does so is in the fluff paragraph prior to the entry for assault grenades. Even the contained weapon profile entry does not refer to itself as a frag grenade, instead it says: assault grenade and has a statline. That statline being identical to a frag grenade's is irrelevant: It is not the profile of a frag grenade. Plasma grenades, and even Corsair Shadowwave grenades specify that they are assault and defensive grenades respectively.

Frag grenades do not.

This is a brilliant observation. Believe that I will keep this in my back pocket in case I need a straw to grasp for in a competitive environment.

Quote :
So only one of 2 things can be true: Either xenos armies, and I contend all armies, can use whatever bits they would like to represent a given weapon as that same sort of pre-weapon fluff text in many cases explicitly states that they come in a variety of form factors, or Space Marines don't have assault grenades.

I don't think you're a radical; I agree with you 100%. I do the same thing myself with certain weapons. As long as the model is distinctive, you should be fine.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 13:55

I believe Codex: Space Marines clears up the Frag/Assault issue.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 14:51

Can anybody look up that issue in the space Marines codex? I NEED TO KNOW! Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 14:56

FRAG GRENADES
Assault grenades, like the ubiquitous frag grenade, can be hurled at the enemy as your warriors charge into battle. The lethal storm of shrapnel from these grenades drives opponents further under cover for a few precious moments, allowing attackers more time to close in and, hopefully, get the first blow in against a disoriented foe.

Shooting
When a unit armed with assault grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon.
Range 8", S3, AP-, Assault 1, Blast
Assault
Models equipped with assault grenades don’t suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through difficult terrain, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Fri Feb 10 2017, 14:57

Sad

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