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StackedDeck
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PostSubject: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 09:01

I haven't been in the game in over a decade so not sure on the latest tournament rules. Let's say I want some grots but don't like that GW only has one sculpt so for additional I use some old Dirz monsters from Rackham. Is that cool? Back in the day I think figures needed to be 75% GW parts for anything official but I have heard comments that make me think that no longer applies. And I would not expect any non-GW figure to be allowed in games run At a GW store. Let me know. Thanks
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 11:56

No idea. I only play with friends and twice at s non official GW tournament.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 11:58

Basically, in tournament lingo as I understand it, a "counts as" model is something that isn't 100% the official GW model, but has been converted using sculpting, kit-bashing, and painting techniques, then placed on the proper base size so that it LOOKS like an alternate sculpt of the original model, or at least recognizeable as a grotesque, in your example. The requirements for % of GW bits sort of went by the wayside when GW stopped supporting tournaments and tournament play. You can kitbash models using ZERO GW bits, and as long as it looks like what it's supposed to be(size/shape/base size), no one will complain.

What you're suggesting, however, without any conversion work and without me being familiar with the stand-in model, sounds more like a proxy, where you have a different model altogether stand in to be something else.

Most tournaments allow counts-as, but don't allow proxies.


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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 13:41

I don't think you'd have a problem finding games at most local stores.
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StackedDeck
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 14:20

I've been surprised before. I once mounted a Tzeentch lord for WFB riding on a Lord of Change from Epic (it was just big enough if he stood on the wings) to be a unique Disc of Tzeentch. The TO told me it wasn't WYSIWYG because it wasn't disc shaped and I wasn't allowed to play it.
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 14:58

That sounds unnecessarily harsh of the TO.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 16:22

Maybe I'm envisioning this wrong somehow, but isn't a disc also WAY smaller than a lord of change? Oh wait, it's from Epic...no idea about the size difference. So if they're the same size and height, yeah, I'd say the TO was overly critical.

I know this isn't helpful if you don't have access to the models, but sometimes when I want to make a conversion because it fits with the theme of my army, I just will, and I'll take it to whatever tournaments I want, and set up the themed conversion when my army is on display(no one ever complains during this phase).

Then, I'll just have a standard copy of the basic model available in case anyone complains during a game and the TO takes their side. I've never had it happen(even a complaint), because I make sure my conversions are as close as possible in size and shape to the originals, but in tournament play, a backup is always better than being told you can't use your version of that wraithknight, so your list is instead penalized 300 points.

Also, anyone insensitive enough to push for you not to be able to use your correctly sized, correctly shaped conversion in a game is probably the type of person who will be utterly flabbergasted and have the wind knocked out of their sails when you pull out your GW official copy instead. I imagine people like this to mostly be complaining hoping to gain advantage rather than because they're concerned about any real threat to the integrity of the game.

I know that doesn't help in cases where the GW version is severely overpriced, as in grotesques, but with things like that, you just have to ask the TOs in advance. Most major tournaments allow conversions/counts as, but with local tournaments, you never know.

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 16:27

I once had an opponent at a tournament claim my scratchbuilt Vulkan He'Stan wasn't WYSIWYG because his cloak didn't have scales modeled on it. (It was just painted with a scale pattern).

If I have any conversions or counts-as, I find it's best to ask a TO about them ahead of time. I saved myself a 3 hour drive last year that way. (The only time I've ever been told I couldn't use a counts-as in a competitive setting.)
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 16:33

Wow, what did they tell you that you couldn't use, Jim? Got a pic?

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StackedDeck
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 19:54

Well in comparison it appears the Confrontation monsters are significantly bigger than grotesques. They may be able to get by as a stand-in Talos but that is stretching it as these models don't look like skimmers.
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 20:02

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Wow, what did they tell you that you couldn't use, Jim? Got a pic?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 20:16

As long as you're not playing in a GW store then the fact that it's not a GW figure won't generally matter. You should however try to ensure that an opponent can look at your model and see fairly easily what it is representing.

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Mon Feb 06 2017, 21:33

I have a friend who uses a massively converted dark mechanicum army, where none of the models are recognisable as the originals. He supplies a book for his opponent with photos of each unit, their stats and unit description. I find this a good way to get around the confusion if you have a great idea for an army, that goes away from the norm, but also want to use said army in a gaming sense too, and want to be respectful to your opponent. I know he always checks with a TO before going to tournaments to see if it is acceptable for that event.

Personally speaking (I am more of a modeller/painter than a hardcore gamer, although I have been playing many years and am not bad at the game) I say rule of cool wins, do what makes you happy, its your hobby (but just expect that sometimes you will not be able to use your army at some events or games)

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Tue Feb 07 2017, 01:12

What a brilliant idea Smile i should make some little unit sheets for my exodites to help people identify them. I've tried to keep them pretty close, but it'd be helpful either way Smile

Plus, if you can walk up to a TO and rattle off all these things to make your counts-as army easy to play against they'll be more likely to say 'yeah sure, seems like you've got it all sorted' Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Wed Feb 08 2017, 17:32

I've played against people who rework their entire army into something else. It's like f***ing pulling teeth because you need a goddamned rubric to figure out what the hell you're shooting at. Don't be that guy.

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Wed Feb 08 2017, 18:48

There is absolutely nothing wrong with counts as.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Wed Feb 08 2017, 19:45

Nothing at all. Don't be discouraged by people trying to force you to play 40k their way. You do you, boo. As long as your units are consistent and your wargear is apparent, you shouldn't have trouble. Just clear it with TOs ahead of time.
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Wed Feb 08 2017, 22:29

Yeah don't be discouraged. Conversion work is one of the biggest facets to 40k, most of it based on the foundation of 'counts-as'.

If you play a couple of games and find people struggling, then that simple printed list of what's what would be more than adequate (and also going above and beyond) Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 09:31

Conversions are one thing. Modeling an army with other models entirely leads to an endless stream of "Well I thought that was X"

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 09:45

TeenageAngst wrote:
Conversions are one thing. Modeling an army with other models entirely leads to an endless stream of "Well I thought that was X"

Then you refer them to the handy guide you've helpfully printed out for them with what they count as and their stats Smile

Which, TBH is probably a step up from where you are against a normal army, where you only know what the units are and their stats if you can recognise and remember what they are.

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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 10:08

You're literally saying the exact same thing as everyone else then TeenageAngst. What you've described now is worlds apart from your first observation. This practice is usually refered to as Proxy. We're talking about counts as. Huge difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 10:58

Neither of those terms are exceptionally well defined.

I'm assuming we all mean 'counts as' to refer to things which are not technically the thing they represent but are still consistent and evident. (Space Marines on raptors being used as bikers. Hellions with Eldar weapons being used as Corsair Jet packets)

I assume by proxy we mean something representing something astronomically different, or with no consistency. (This Coke can is a drop pod. All of these Space Marines have lascannons, even though they are modeled with a variety of weapons. These Immortal Guardsmen are Necrons.

And the line between conversion, scratchbuild, kitbash, and counts as is ever a razor thin one.
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 11:03

Exactly and that's what I'm trying to beat in without causing you to censure me again.
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 12:14

Who's censoring you?

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Counts As figures   Thu Feb 09 2017, 12:38

Censure is different from Censor.

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