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 Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death

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PostSubject: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 01:20

Hey guys, I have a question on how to interpret some rules.

First off, I have a question for Reaver Jetbikes: The Hit and Run rule specifies that a unit can choose to leave the combat they're in at the end of any phase. For the assault phase: can they do the Hit and Run as soon as the charge "sub-phase" is over or do they have to wait till the whole assault phase is over?

Secondly, regarding Husk Blades: The Instant Death rule says an unsaved wound caused by an ID weapon removes all wounds and kills the wounded model. Suppose an Archon went up against a full-health group of 3 Tau Crisis suits, each with two wounds. If the Archon hits twice and both hits are failed saves, can he kill two of the three Crisis suits? Or do wounds get allocated before the Instant Death rule applies?

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 01:23

1: They must wait until the entire assault phase is over.

2: Each wound is applied one at a time. Each multi-wound model that failed a save will die to instant death. Thus in the scenario you provided, you would kill 2 Crisis Suits.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 02:01

Thanks for the infos. That thing with the Husk Blade... that sounds amazing Very Happy

Sorry, I just realized that I posted this in the wrong forum
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 09:02

FYI, huskblade isn't super good because it's only AP3, expensive, and the archon is only S3, so against MEQ he only wounds on 5+, anything tougher takes a 6 to wound, if he can hurt it at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 09:26

Yeah would love for the Huskblade to be +1 or +2S. Would justify its cost slightly.

Only other alternative is to power him up with a Soul Trap and some easily killable mooks beforehand, but he'd only ever get dead killy later on the game...

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 09:39

It was AP2 last edition, with the FAQ. When they copy/pasted it over, they forgot about the FAQ and it became weaker. With other nerfs to the Archon and other accompanying wargear as well, it sort of layered on the reasons why it isn't very good any more.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 10:24

I miss the early 5th ed archon before the razorspam meta. Good night, sweet prince, we hardly knew ye.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 11:41

Yeah, while the Huskblade isn't supergood to hit, the effect is just real strong. For the purpose of my scenario though: luckily Crisis suits have an armor save of 3+ Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Wed Feb 01 2017, 21:00

Wish we could give our archon a bike, would love to throw him in a group of reavers. But you couldnt hit and run so idk.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Thu Feb 02 2017, 00:12

@Xyrin wrote:
Wish we could give our archon a bike, would love to throw him in a group of reavers. But you couldnt hit and run so idk.

You should be able to H&R. I thought that one model with H&R conferred the rule to any other models in the same unit (for instance, if a Shadowseer joins some Grots).

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Thu Feb 02 2017, 07:10

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
@Xyrin wrote:
Wish we could give our archon a bike, would love to throw him in a group of reavers. But you couldnt hit and run so idk.

You should be able to H&R. I thought that one model with H&R conferred the rule to any other models in the same unit (for instance, if a Shadowseer joins some Grots).

Your right, just re-read the rule, archon needs a bike so he can be cool like farseer or autarch >.>
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Sun Feb 05 2017, 20:08

Since Hit and Run says "any phase"... wouldn't it be smarter to wait until your turn is over, and the enemy has passed his movement and shooting phase, then try detaching?
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Sun Feb 05 2017, 20:30

@Tactical Salad wrote:
Since Hit and Run says "any phase"... wouldn't it be smarter to wait until your turn is over, and the enemy has passed his movement and shooting phase, then try detaching?

It actually says, "end of any Assault phase".

But yes, typically that is precisely how hit and run is used: At the end of your enemy's assault phase, after their movement, psychic, shooting, and charge phases have passed, so that they're basically safe from retaliation, and can shoot and charge again in your own turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Sun Feb 05 2017, 20:37

Ah yes you're right, I posted this before reconsulting the rulebook, was so excited about the idea as soon as I suddenly thought about it that I just had to quickly ask here.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 12:14

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Tactical Salad wrote:
Since Hit and Run says "any phase"... wouldn't it be smarter to wait until your turn is over, and the enemy has passed his movement and shooting phase, then try detaching?

It actually says, "end of any Assault phase".

But yes, typically that is precisely how hit and run is used: At the end of your enemy's assault phase, after their movement, psychic, shooting, and charge phases have passed, so that they're basically safe from retaliation, and can shoot and charge again in your own turn.

I never thought about that! Betray, that is just dirty, yet fantastic.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 12:24

With Reavers it's worth remembering that they are pretty fragile in close combat due to only having a 5+ save. Depending on what they're fighting and what firepower they will face outside of combat it is worth considering whether to hit & run on your own turn. Facing the enemy shooting phase with a 3+ jink save may well be preferable to staying in combat another turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 12:31

@Count Adhemar wrote:
With Reavers it's worth remembering that they are pretty fragile in close combat due to only having a 5+ save. Depending on what they're fighting and what firepower they will face outside of combat it is worth considering whether to hit & run on your own turn. Facing the enemy shooting phase with a 3+ jink save may well be preferable to staying in combat another turn.

Drat, and here's me having converted up two Arena Champs with Agonisers precisely so they would be a little better in an assault they're stuck in. Seems to me like that might be a waste of a significant amount of points...

I suppose you have to weigh up each individual case. Whether they'd be better placed duking it out in combat, or weathering a shooting phase.

Another consideration would be whether they're likely to get charged by the unit they've just H&R'd away from.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 12:38

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
With Reavers it's worth remembering that they are pretty fragile in close combat due to only having a 5+ save. Depending on what they're fighting and what firepower they will face outside of combat it is worth considering whether to hit & run on your own turn. Facing the enemy shooting phase with a 3+ jink save may well be preferable to staying in combat another turn.

Drat, and here's me having converted up two Arena Champs with Agonisers precisely so they would be a little better in an assault they're stuck in. Seems to me like that might be a waste of a significant amount of points...

I suppose you have to weigh up each individual case. Whether they'd be better placed duking it out in combat, or weathering a shooting phase.

Another consideration would be whether they're likely to get charged by the unit they've just H&R'd away from.

I run my Reavers almost naked (just caltrops). If you have an Agoniser champ then it's probably going to tip the scales in favour of staying in combat. Coming out on your own turn is just something to consider, especially if you're fighting something that ignores your armour and/or FNP in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 13:03

I have been running them in squads of 6 with 2 blasters and 2 caltrops, so if i can get some shooting in that would be preferred.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 19:01

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
With Reavers it's worth remembering that they are pretty fragile in close combat due to only having a 5+ save. Depending on what they're fighting and what firepower they will face outside of combat it is worth considering whether to hit & run on your own turn. Facing the enemy shooting phase with a 3+ jink save may well be preferable to staying in combat another turn.

Drat, and here's me having converted up two Arena Champs with Agonisers precisely so they would be a little better in an assault they're stuck in. Seems to me like that might be a waste of a significant amount of points...

I suppose you have to weigh up each individual case.

Yeah, it's a case by case basis. In many cases, the things you don't want to be stuck in combat with will kill you before you have an opportunity to bother weighing the decision. Things like banshees, genestealers, Nobz squads w/big choppas, kroot cornivores, and basically anything else with AP5 or better squad-wide will make reavers dissappear if you have a bad caltrops roll and/or aren't able to kill a significant number before their initiative.

I still recall the time I assaulted a genestealer brood with reavers and rolled a 1 on caltrops.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 19:18

Arena Champion as an upgrade is generally worth taking due to LOS for a cluster caltrop but I don't think weapons are worth it unless your playing mono DE. An Autarch with a Laser Lance, a Corsair prince with the Shard of Anaris, shadowfield, and divination both provide 5 S6 attacks on the Charge, with the autarch ignoring overwatch (because you always take a banshee mask) and all their attacks being AP3, and the prince having rending, fearless, prescience or precognition, a 2++, and ID in challenges. One kills meq 3-4 at a time and the other can be made to essentially never die and destroy any snowflake character who doesn't have EW and fight down many who do.

Both is a not-quite deathstar that will eviscerate almost anything short of thunderwolves or a greentide.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Mon Feb 06 2017, 19:39

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Arena Champion as an upgrade is generally worth taking due to LOS for a cluster caltrop but I don't think weapons are worth it unless your playing mono DE. An Autarch with a Laser Lance, a Corsair prince with the Shard of Anaris, shadowfield, and divination both provide 5 S6 attacks on the Charge, with the autarch ignoring overwatch (because you always take a banshee mask) and all their attacks being AP3, and the prince having rending, fearless, prescience or precognition, a 2++, and ID in challenges. One kills meq 3-4 at a time and the other can be made to essentially never die and destroy any snowflake character who doesn't have EW and fight down many who do.

Both is a not-quite deathstar that will eviscerate almost anything short of thunderwolves or a greentide.

Seconded.

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Tue Feb 07 2017, 17:31

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Yeah, it's a case by case basis. In many cases, the things you don't want to be stuck in combat with will kill you before you have an opportunity to bother weighing the decision. Things like banshees, genestealers, Nobz squads w/big choppas, kroot cornivores, and basically anything else with AP5 or better squad-wide will make reavers dissappear if you have a bad caltrops roll and/or aren't able to kill a significant number before their initiative.

I still recall the time I assaulted a genestealer brood with reavers and rolled a 1 on caltrops.

Ouch, must have winced at that :S

Hmmm, so by the sounds of things Arena Champs are a pretty specific take if you want something on the lower tier of near-deathstar, but don't quite have the points for a beatstick HQ, or at least meta-dependent as to how much 3+/AP5 you're likely to encounter?

Hang on, you can put Caltrops on the Arena Champ and LoS the wounds away? Wish I'd realised that before glueing mine together :S

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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Tue Feb 07 2017, 17:38

Yes. The apothecary ruling does not apply here. The apothecary scenario relies on taking weapon upgrades before one takes a role upgrade. It is why an arena champion can't be the one to take the blaster, but cluster caltrops and grav talons excplicitly say they can be taken by any MODEL in the unit. That's why I almost always say it's worth taking the upgrade. 4+ LOS is way underestimated.

If I'm running a list without corsairs I usually make an areana champion my warlord as well, I can't say I ever get Meyer weapon list items for my Arena Champ tho.
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PostSubject: Re: Reavers' Hit and Run & Huskblade Instant Death   Tue Feb 07 2017, 22:41

I still don't think the apothecary scenario applies to every other similar, but slightly different case. If it did, there are some really stupid upgrade lists out there, like dark reapers where you're forced to pay the price for the starshot missiles on all dark reapers, then you upgrade said model to an exarch, and some might make the argument he no longer has the missiles despite the upgrade progression FORCING you to buy them if you wanted to put it on the rest of the unit? That's an 8 point/model upgrade.

And it's a stretch to argue that a dark reaper exarch isn't a dark reaper anyhow, but people have been trying to apply this apothecary scenario far and wide. The difference is, when you upgrade from a dark reaper to an exarch, there is no equipment difference at all, so it's assumed you'd keep your equipment, including any upgraded equipment that previously applied to the whole squad before you upgraded.

Anyhow, sorry for the rant. It's just one example of where the apothecary ruling wouldn't/shouldn't be applied.

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