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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:19

@Logan Frost wrote:
Be careful @Tounguekutter, we are really close to a No true Dark Eldar argument here.

https://youtu.be/5zzSqL--d_I

No Dark Eldar worship some god until one does.
Some worship Cegorach, some Shaimesh, some Khaine.
Is not ok to generalize just because it's a fictional race.

Surely that should be 'No True Kin' Wink

Agreed on that though, although I'd say that the general DEldar popluation would be far more skeptical/derisive about the Old Gods and the New than Craftworlders.

Also, it's important to see it from the perspective of a random Dark Eldar dude. We know that the Ynnari absorb souls, but apparently they're not consumed (maybe) so they can be resurrected. However, we're allowed access to the omniscient narrator.

For your random dude on the streets of Commorragh, it would look entirely like the Ynnari simply consume the souls of those who die around them. How is that any better than what Slaanesh does? You'd have to be desperate indeed for that to be your best option for survival.

Personally, I see the Ynnari like a radical religious movement, hoovering up all the dregs of Commorrite and Craftworld society. The disenfranchised, the dreamers, the hopeless idealists, the desperate undercrowd who will never be powerful enough to leverage regeneration. Much like radical religious sects in real life, these will be the people drawn to their cause, and the people the prophets of Ynnead will target.

Meanwhile, the more rich and powerful Archons have too much to lose by throwing in their lot with a load of religious nutjobs. You'll get a few that make the gamble of course. It is in the DEldar's nature to try and get one up on your peers of course, but looking at it through a realpolitik lens power breeds conservatism.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:35

I'll play Ynnead advocate here.

Look from the POV of an archon.
What keeps you alive in DE society if the whim of an haemonculus.
Then you see an ex-succubus come back from the dead and ascend to semi-godhood, promising that you can too if you feed her god enough of your kabal
You are already used to that, so it's a no brainer.

The difference between their gods and real life gods is, of course, that the former are tangible observable things, following them is not an act of faith, is an evaluation of opportunity.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:47

@Logan Frost wrote:
Following them is not an act of faith, is an evaluation of opportunity.

Now that's got Dark Eldar written all over it Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:20

@Logan_Frost WOW!  What a great video!  That was super-well done and I'm glad you sent that my way, as I had never heard of that logical fallacy - and I (foolishly) prided myself on my knowledge of fallacies as a philosophy major - guess I need to study more!  

I agree that I was using a fallacy now that it's been pointed out to me.  So it would seem that not all Dark Eldar are so conceited they won't worship anyone/anything.  However, that was my first impression of who they were, and unless I'm mistaken (and I certainly could be) it seemed like that was the picture GW was trying to paint for the reader in previous descriptions of them, but now they are providing an exception to that, and it is forcing me (for better or for worse) to alter my (or our, if I'm not alone) previous conception of dark eldar .  Is anyone else having to change their conception of Dark Eldar?

However, following Ynnead as an act of opportunity and not real devotion is exactly the kind of thing I would expect a Dark Eldar to do.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Fri Feb 10 2017, 21:44

@Logan Frost wrote:
Be careful @Tounguekutter, we are really close to a No true Dark Eldar argument here.

https://youtu.be/5zzSqL--d_I

No Dark Eldar worship some god until one does.
Some worship Cegorach, some Shaimesh, some Khaine.
Is not ok to generalize just because it's a fictional race.

How do you kill a vampire? Stake through the heart? Garlic? Baby formula? You can kill a vampire any way you want because vampires DON'T EXIST. Likewise you can say Dark Eldar do and say and worship whatever you want. I could say my Kabal doesn't have their soul being sucked away by Slaanesh because they live in the magical land of Equestria and have discovered the power of friendship from talking ponies. I could say most Dark Eldar are Roman Catholics and the goal of all these realspace raids is to amass enough resources to retake Jerusalem. The issue isn't that you can't make generalizations, just the opposite. The issue is you have to make generalizations from a piece of source material or else you open a whole new can of worms where suddenly everything and anything is allowable, and the term Dark Eldar loses its distinction.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 00:10

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The issue is you have to make generalizations from a piece of source material or else you open a whole new can of worms where suddenly everything and anything is allowable, and the term Dark Eldar loses its distinction.

Sure you can generalize, but you shouldn't over-generalize.
Even in the background of the game there are Dark Eldar that worship gods, it is not something a random player is writing in the fluff section of his kabal in a random forum, it's in the background published by the authors of the game.

Painting every single faction as a monotone blob of stereotypes is simply lazy writing.
If your idea of Dark Eldar is coherent with the setting you can add variation without loosing the identity of the original concept.

I see in a lot of your comment that you point out that, since we are talking of a fictional race, you need to stick to a solid set of point or "suddenly everything and anything is allowable".
That is not true.

Bram Stoker's Dracula, Interview with the Vampire, Sheridan Le Fanu's Carmilla, all share the same vampire theme but are all different in mood and motif.
The fact that Lestat is a decadent rock star in Queen of the Damned makes him less a vampire than Dracula?
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 01:00

Quote :
Is anyone else having to change their conception of Dark Eldar?

No. Dark Eldar following the cult of Ynnead are not Dark Eldar, they are Ynnari, hence the faction difference. They are by definition no true Dark Eldar.

Quote :
Sure you can generalize, but you shouldn't over-generalize.
Even in the background of the game there are Dark Eldar that worship gods, it is not something a random player is writing in the fluff section of his kabal in a random forum, it's in the background published by the authors of the game.

There's also a Dark Eldar that became the consort of certain Chaos Space Marine but I don't expect lining up to be sexual courtesans to CSM to be a major defining feature of the faction. Those Dark Eldar you mention are deviants, and as such, the no true scotsman fallacy doesn't hold weight.

Quote :
Painting every single faction as a monotone blob of stereotypes is simply lazy writing.
If your idea of Dark Eldar is coherent with the setting you can add variation without loosing the identity of the original concept.

Of course it's lazy writing, which is why I added variation within the theme in my own Kabal.

Quote :
I see in a lot of your comment that you point out that, since we are talking of a fictional race, you need to stick to a solid set of point or "suddenly everything and anything is allowable".
That is not true.

Yes it is, and I demonstrated that thoroughly. I believe a large portion of Dark Eldar Roman Catholic. Can you disprove it? Can you prove they're not? I believe they also have a large number of Space Marines in their ranks. Look, I even made an entire Dark Eldar army out of Space Marines. Try and tell me that isn't Dark Eldar. Now, if you append the definition to mean "within the 40k universe's defined story and boundaries" then all of this goes out the window and you're left with a coherent race that lives in the webway and are generally cruel and sadistic and self-loving murderous monsters who don't worship gods and laugh at those who do. You NEED that grounding in order for the distinction to have meaning.

Quote :
Bram Stoker's Dracula, Interview with the Vampire, Sheridan Le Fanu's Carmilla, all share the same vampire theme but are all different in mood and motif.
The fact that Lestat is a decadent rock star in Queen of the Damned makes him less a vampire than Dracula?

They're different universes and different definitions of what a vampire is. I could make a universe in which vampires all look like shaggy dogs. The Golden Compass made a universe where all demons were spiritual animals people befriended for life. The Bible makes them out to be fallen angels, D&D says they're extradimansional beings that hail from the Abyssal Plane, and GW believes they're manifestations of a Chaos God's will. They're all demons but they're from different universes.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 03:40

@Teenageangst wrote:
Now, if you append the definition to mean "within the 40k universe's defined story and boundaries" then all of this goes out the window and you're left with a coherent race that lives in the webway and are generally cruel and sadistic and self-loving murderous monsters who don't worship gods and laugh at those who do. You NEED that grounding in order for the distinction to have meaning.

In all honesty, despite having it explained to me already, I don't feel like I've fully grasped the NoTrueScottsman Fallacy yet, but I see a distinction to be made: surely I'm not falling into the fallacy when I state "no true triangle has more than 3 sides," because having exactly 3 sides is part of the definition of a triangle. Perhaps the problem here is that not worshipping Gods is part of the definition of Dark Eldar (or at least my definition) and having that changed is jarring for me. Many armies worship a God or Gods in some way, namely most imperial forces (God-Emperor), most chaos forces (Duh), orks (Gork and Mork - although not sure if orks actually worship them), etc. and the fact that Dark Eldar do not venerate any deity sets them apart and reveals their collective character (they're exceedingly arrogant). Hence the change from not worshipping to worshipping is a significant one. If only some Deldar worship then that sets them apart from the rest who don't. A defining aspect is changed about them and so their definition is changed. They are no longer true dark elder in that they differ from their origins in a way that does not make them more of what they already are.

Of course, if not worshipping gods is not a defining trait of Dark Eldar my argument falls apart completely Laughing

Am I still falling into the fallacy?

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:03

A no true scotsman only applies if there is no core set of defining rules you're relying on for your definition. "No true man would let his wife drive his truck" is a no true scotsman since it revolves around an indeterminate definition of a man. There is no shortage of examples of trucks being driven by married women, obviously this is just a statement based on the biases of the observer. "No true man has two X chromosomes" is not a no true scotsman as it's something with a clearly defined set of biological rules. That is, men are defined by possessing the Y chromosome.

Dark Eldar are defined by their cruelty, vanity, need to feed on intense emotions, by living in the webway, by not worshipping gods (the entire concept of the Dark Muses revolves around this), and by their superiority complex. There is a lot of room for interpretation in there of course, but if any of the defining characteristics are completely broken, you're left with something that *might* be called a Dark Eldar, but not a *true* Dark Eldar. That is, they are atypical and probably fall under some other category. Some examples would be a Dark Eldar that lives in a traveling realspace fleet, they might be better defined as a Corsair. A Dark Eldar that is friendly instead of cruel is probably just an Eldar. A Dark Eldar that worships Ynnead is a Ynnari and not a Dark Eldar. Hope this clears some stuff up.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:18

That's a factually untrue statement. Even if you are a bigot who doesn't recognize trans people as legitimately their gender there are people you would categories as "biological males" who possess 2 x chromosomes.

This whole argument is inane because of GW's stance that every thing they have ever printed is canon but not all of it is true. Any or all of things can very easily be brushed aside as partial, flawed, impressions.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:30

@amorrowlyday wrote:
That's a factually untrue statement. Even if you are a bigot who doesn't recognize trans people as legitimately their gender there are people you would categories as "biological males" who possess 2 x chromosomes.

And even if I am, this is a moot point. I was trying to give an illustration for the logical fallacy.

Quote :
This whole argument is inane because of GW's stance that every thing they have ever printed is canon but not all of it is true. Any or all of things can very easily be brushed aside as partial, flawed, impressions.

Then we're back to square one where I can say my Dark Eldar are Space Marines living in the Ponyverse.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:32

@Tounguekutter wrote:

Of course, if not worshipping gods is not a defining trait of Dark Eldar my argument falls apart completely Laughing

Am I still falling into the fallacy?

I think so. I never spoke up on this before when you mentioned that "dark eldar would never worship a god" because I generally don't want to get into fluff debates with people. Seems like they're unwinnable. That said, I never got this impression at all when I read about DE. Not every dark eldar is conceited. They're just generally selfish. They aren't delusional, or suffering from megalomania(as a whole, I'm sure some are). They're perfectly capable of seeing that things outside themselves may very likely be more powerful than them. Them not worshipping a god(though they certainly pay respect to Khaine), was true, but a large part of that was that their entire pantheon, for the most part, was gone. In the fluff, harlequins are drawn from BOTH eldar AND DE society, so obviously SOME DE worship the laughing god. DE don't worship gods, on the whole, because their pantheon of gods were destroyed. If that weren't the case, I'm not saying they'd suddenly be religious fanatics, but I'd say a healthy percentage might still revere the gods. I view DE as the ultimate pragmatists.

DE internal monologue upon finding out about Ynneade: "Hmm, I'd like to know what a God's heart tastes like, but I think if I tried to take it, she'd turn me into kibbles n' bits...But I like her killy style. Pain and death follows her around. Maybe I'll tag along and "support her", and she can help me find other hearts to feed on. Yeah, that sounds good, and in the meantime, I'll watch lots of things die horrible deaths in her wake. Yeah...Wouldn't miss it for the world."

ALL ABOARD THE PAIN TRAIN, WYCHES! Wink


Then, of course, the fact that DE's lust for blood is part of their state of being due in great part to simply being a part of DE society might see that bloodlust wane, and that inner monologue shift as said DE spends more time among the Ynnari, and less time around Commorragh and other DE.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:32

Yep, and I'll fight people who suggest that you can't. Pretty marines ftw /s but seriously correct.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:37

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Yep, and I'll fight people who suggest that you can't. Pretty marines ftw /s but seriously correct.

I prefer not to however, as it's silly. And I prefer to believe that Dark Eldar are not believers in deities, as do apparently others because that is an established character trait of the faction. And I prefer to think that people who think they do worship deities are wrong in the same way that people who enjoy the Star Wars prequels are wrong. They are free to be wrong, but that doesn't change how wrong they are.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 04:46

I agree and disagree.

I think the lack of any real worship on the part of the DE is a real thing that existed for a long time. There's a great bit in Andy Chambers' series where he talks about the waystation on the way in to Commorragh where the Dark Eldar throw all the religious icons they've collected, to the point that the place is a titanic pile of altars, statues, rosaries, and the like, now miles deep. The practice started after the fall, when the Dark Eldar discarded their own religious icons (because their gods were dead, for the most part, and had failed to stop the cataclysm). But he ends by pointing out that the heap is fittingly metaphorical, since underneath the heaps of glittering mementos to how big of rebels the True Kin are, their gods are still down there, not gone; just buried.

I think there was always an undercurrent in Dark Eldar society of people who embrace the damnation of their nature, as immortal psychic vampires beholden to no one, and those who chafe under the knowledge that their 'blessings' are in fact just subservience to Slaanesh. The second group would take another path if they could, but recognize that it's too late for them.

Ynnead's arrival suddenly makes what was largely a meaningless philosophical difference suddenly a huge rift running through their society. Ynnead offers hope where none existed previously, and I think one of the greatest story aspects of that is the revelation of how many of the Dark Eldar are ancient, despicable, and corrupt beyond measure, but still harboring a tiny, flickering spark of hope within their hearts, and on the other hand how many of them are so jaded that there is no room within their souls for comprehension of redemption, and who now have to face that fact firsthand.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 05:00

Very articulate rebuttal Jim. I agree 100%.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 06:37

@Jimsolo wrote:
. Ynnead offers hope where none existed previously, and I think one of the greatest story aspects of that is the revelation of how many of the Dark Eldar are ancient, despicable, and corrupt beyond measure, but still harboring a tiny, flickering spark of hope within their hearts, and on the other hand how many of them are so jaded that there is no room within their souls for comprehension of redemption, and who now have to face that fact firsthand.

This makes sense to me, but I do hope that in the 3rd book the vaguely and (as far as I know) not yet substantiated rumors of the Vect and 2 Chaos dudes Triumvirate proves to be true, because I would love to see the two sub-groups of Dark Eldar clash and this drive the eviler ones eviler. However, I predict the next book will be centered around Dante, because in an interview with one of the Storm of Chaos designers he said the next book is going to be golden. Which makes sense since that way the 3 books would be more or less the 3 primary colors Red, Blue(ish), and Yellow (gold). Also, the first figure was Abbadon (villan), second was Ynncarne (Chaotic Neutral?), so making Dante the figurehead for the next book would complete the scale with a Hero.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 08:20

Man, I stopped paying attention for a bit and this thread became awesome.

Idea Channel! I love the Idea Channel!

Lots of people writing thoughtful, interesting things! And BetrayTheWorld, you've written a bunch of awesome things in a number of threads recently that I totally agree with. I thought you should know.

Anyway.

The Dark Muses. I don't remember if the current Codex even mentions them, but in the previous one it says:

Quote :

Though the Dark Eldar typically do not worship anyone apart from themselves, they do pay homage to those the respect. Vaunted warriors or dark artists may become revered amongst their own kind; not to honour their skill, but purely to learn more of their power.

In this way truly mighty Dark Eldar from ages past have become almost folkloric figures. Many epitomize a particular form of vice, whose clandestine worship led to the weakening of the ancient Eldar gods and, indirectly, the Fall. They are known collectively as the Dark Muses, and they are figures of terrible power. Favoured by assassins and murderers is Shaimesh, Lord of Poisons, the treacherous brother of Saim-Hann the Cosmic Serpent. The courtesan elite of the Cult of Lhamaea pay homage to Lhilitu, Consort of the Void, whereas powerful Archons are more likely to follow the tenets of Vileth, a figure synonymous with immense arrogance. On the eve of battle many traditionalist Wych Cults invoke the Red Crone Hekatii, or make sacrifices to Qa'leh, Mistress of Blades.


@Tounguekutter wrote:


This makes sense to me, but I do hope that in the 3rd book the vaguely and (as far as I know) not yet substantiated rumors of the Vect and 2 Chaos dudes Triumvirate proves to be true, because I would love to see the two sub-groups of Dark Eldar clash and this drive the eviler ones eviler.  However, I predict the next book will be centered around Dante, because in an interview with one of the Storm of Chaos designers he said the next book is going to be golden.  Which makes sense since that way the 3 books would be more or less the 3 primary colors Red, Blue(ish), and Yellow (gold).  Also, the first figure was Abbadon (villan), second was Ynncarne (Chaotic Neutral?), so making Dante the figurehead for the next book would complete the scale with a Hero.  

The third book is called Rise of the Primarch and it features Cypher, some Grey Knight, and Roboute Guilliman who is for some reason a million feet tall.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 12:48

@Jimsolo wrote:
I agree and disagree.

I think the lack of any real worship on the part of the DE is a real thing that existed for a long time.  There's a great bit in Andy Chambers' series where he talks about the waystation on the way in to Commorragh where the Dark Eldar throw all the religious icons they've collected, to the point that the place is a titanic pile of altars, statues, rosaries, and the like, now miles deep.  The practice started after the fall, when the Dark Eldar discarded their own religious icons (because their gods were dead, for the most part, and had failed to stop the cataclysm).  But he ends by pointing out that the heap is fittingly metaphorical, since underneath the heaps of glittering mementos to how big of rebels the True Kin are, their gods are still down there, not gone; just buried.  

I think there was always an undercurrent in Dark Eldar society of people who embrace the damnation of their nature, as immortal psychic vampires beholden to no one, and those who chafe under the knowledge that their 'blessings' are in fact just subservience to Slaanesh. The second group would take another path if they could, but recognize that it's too late for them.  

Ynnead's arrival suddenly makes what was largely a meaningless philosophical difference suddenly a huge rift running through their society.  Ynnead offers hope where none existed previously, and I think one of the greatest story aspects of that is the revelation of how many of the Dark Eldar are ancient, despicable, and corrupt beyond measure, but still harboring a tiny, flickering spark of hope within their hearts, and on the other hand how many of them are so jaded that there is no room within their souls for comprehension of redemption, and who now have to face that fact firsthand.

This is very very insightful, and adds tons of nuance to the DEldar Smile interesting tidbit about the pile of religious icons as well.

One thing to also bear in mind about the Dark Eldar is one of the defining features of their society and psyche is that they abhor weakness of any sort. Their constant individual power struggles, the utter uncaring nature towards their weak, and the near-veneration of the strong all points to this. Plus, it's actually quite a realistic way in which societies adapt to difficult times.

In their eyes, the Old Gods are weak. Not only did they fail to stop Slaanesh from claiming their souls, they died in the process. No God that is dead is worthy of the DEldar's respect. I suspect Khaine gets a pass because at least he fought, but still he failed so not widely worthy of worship.

Ynnead has potential, which I think is why many Dark Eldar are curious.

Saying that, I do actually get what @TeenageAngst is saying. The word worship has connotations that have no place in the psyche of the Dark Eldar as we know them. That of adoration, blind obedience and prostration before their lord and master.

I prefer the term 'venerate'. It implies something quite different. A respect for power. Holding something up as an ideal, and exemplar of what you could be. A conscious decision to pick something as an end goal to be strived towards.

That feels much more Dark Eldar.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 15:13

@Ynneadwraith wrote:

I prefer the term 'venerate'. It implies something quite different. A respect for power. Holding something up as an ideal, and exemplar of what you could be. A conscious decision to pick something as an end goal to be strived towards.

That feels much more Dark Eldar.

I wouldn't disagree with this. But at the same time, the argument in opposition to DE following Ynneade seemed to imply that doing this, and traveling with the Ynnari wouldn't be sufficient to BE one of the Ynnari. That, I DO disagree with. I've yet to see anything that would indicate to me that the Ynnari have to spend any of their time "worshiping" Ynneade.

If Ynneade starts holding Sunday mass, requiring tithes, confessions, X amount of time prostrating yourself before her, etc, I could certainly see DE balk at the thought.

But if all that is required to be a Ynnari is that you come along with them and fight to create more death for the death god...I'd imagine the DE response would be: "Well, I was gonna do that anyway..." right? Wink

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 16:48

They give up their power from pain, obviously there's some kinda two way street going on. Any Dark Eldar without that is no true Dark Eldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 17:35

As soon as you start worshiping something, you're not a true kin. We don't worship. The weak need that!

On the other hand... Having the soul Reborn cycle restored would be awesome. But momentarily my soul gets eaten by another Eldar or some new god. So I'm not sold on that.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 19:24

Power from pain represents feeding Slaanesh the suffering of others. Both Dark Eldar and Ynnari serve a deity by feeding them souls; the Ynnari just don't delude themselves about the arrangement.
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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 19:42

The Dark Eldar are as great as their flaws, it's those flaws that give them strength. Gods are limited by their own perfection and their purview.

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PostSubject: Re: Drukhari - What do we think?   Sat Feb 11 2017, 20:35

It's a philosophical debate I'd like to talk about my finest imperial saint tears and blood mixture... >:-)

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