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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 16:54

A pack of Hellion ambushers lurking inside of a fortification is the only way I've used them with any success in this edition.
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 18:33

@der-al Now that you have pointed it out I guess that really doesn't make any sense.

@CptMetal I'm sorry but what Sarkesian and Ohnaka were talking about sounded an awful lot like wishlisting to me and that is basically what a fandex is so...

As for tips for how best to use Hellions as they actually exist I would say MSU all day every day. If you're hard up for Fast Attack slots you can use the Realspace Raiders detachment (perhaps that detachment's lone redeeming quality). Although when you can get another 3 Fast attack slots for a Lhamaen and 2 Venom/Raider 5-man kabalite squads (using a CAD) I fail to see why you would need to use RSR unless you were also running a lot of MSU Reavers and/or Beastpack.


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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 20:24

If I get gangs, I'll probably just use 10 of them as kind of an escort to venoms, so they face one less unit of bolters, or tau pulse rounds. they might be weak, but without blast weapons, it still takes 10 shots to kill them at least. and they can bite back in shooting, with assault potential. still not very good but can be dad to OK in a certain role.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 20:26

I'm going to take the opposite tact: They are a 5ppm direct sidegrade for kabalites. due to their weapon being two-handed, and kabalites not having CC weapons proper and therefore not dualwielding, as well possessing identical statlines.

for your 5 pts you get:

A better version of the same shooting [assault 2 > Rapid Fire; always]

The ability to move 12 inches and shoot [If raiders do this the crew snapfires]

The ability to Deep strike

All attacks at AP5 (So nothing armour is actually nothing)

Melee attacks at S4

Drugs

Hit and Run



As opposed to a raider or venom which costs atleast 11ppm for 5 bodies. So then the question becomes what can bone stock warriors with hit and run and move 12" do that Reavers and Grotesques, can't? Die en masse which makes them well suited to being a highly substantial wound pool for characters. 20 bodies no sgt. If I wanted agonizers on kabalites I'd take beastmasters in units of 3.

Instead I suggest putting a combination of a banshee mask autarch, a corsair prince with a shadowfield and precognition, a void dreamer with a shimmershield, and the shard of anaris into the squad, with jump and jetpacks accordingly of course, and either start in reserves or in and on a fortification turn 2 you're on the map, shooting and taking wounds, remember you have 20 bodies there just to attempt a 5+/6+(5+) or die. You're fearless so the losses are whatever and turn 3 your hitting CC. Maybe you have 10 S4 attacks, but that doesn't really matter the point of getting there was for your beatstick CC characters to do damage and to have even 1 hellion left over to get back out once the unit is crippled. There is really not that much S6 in CC so once you get there on turn 3 all the hellions will get their full 5++/5+FNP, and if there is it almost as easily could have been force which is significantly worse for grotesques than hellions. If things do get dicey your prince has a rerollable 2++.

Unfortunately this approach has 2 main "problems" of the opportunity cost variety. First is that a 6 body reaver-star, which is ~16% more hearty due to taking less wounds on average in the first place, is generally considered hearty enough and is considerably cheaper, I'm going to do some math and examine this end some more,  and has a better overall save then the hellions even though they won't take a void dreamer as the void dreamer can't keep up. The other being that Grotesques cost 11.56 points per wound. They can't move as fast and they can't run away but they hit significantly harder and and significantly harder to drop due to always having the 5++/5+FNP. Both the faster unit and the slower tougher unit outpace it for damage.
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 20:59

@amorrowlyday wrote:
I'm going to take the opposite tact: They are a 5ppm direct sidegrade for kabalites. due to their weapon being two-handed, and kabalites not having CC weapons proper and therefore not dualwielding, as well possessing identical statlines.

for your 5 pts you get:

A better version of the same shooting [assault 2 > Rapid Fire; always]

The ability to move 12 inches and shoot [If raiders do this the crew snapfires]

The ability to Deep strike [i]

All attacks at AP5 (So nothing armour is actually nothing)

Melee attacks at S4

Drugs

Hit and Run

I am going to think of my hellions as speedy kabalites that can keep up with my venoms, and shield them. my opponent plays tau and they are actually pretty ok against crisis suits and meq with their sheer amount of attacks, and str4, and shooting. 10 can take down 4 crisis suits in 1 turn (it might have been 20, but I math hammered it).
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Feb 05 2017, 19:30

I do find it odd that on paper Hellions seem ok when compared to Kabalites, but I think where they fall apart is the difference between the two units is not great enough to merit the role change or the losses of Objective Secured and transport options. It almost makes me wonder if individual models should get a base points cost reduction for having fewer upgrade/transport options.

Back on track another role they may conceivably fill is MSU as Overwatch fodder. I'm really struggling to find a role Reavers don't do better though. It hurts when both units take up the same force org. slot and you can't help but make a direct comparison.

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I am very excited by the new 8th edition and what it will bring for Dark Eldar.  I have a hard time believing it will be overall worse than our situation as of 7th.  I am always happy to talk wishlisting and fandexes in any edition from 4-on.  I have written multiple fan codexes (3 and a "mini-fandex" which was totally ridiculous), the latest of which (for 7th edition) can be found here.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Feb 05 2017, 21:00

@Tounguekutter the reason why they seem better on paper is it's hard to intially see that they kill them selves when ever they go into terrain. And they need to be in terrain (or a transport, which is not an option) to survive
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Feb 05 2017, 22:44

Do they, though? Mine don't typically kill themselves when hiding in terrain. Certainly not very commonly.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Feb 05 2017, 22:49

Probably 1 of 6.

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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Feb 05 2017, 23:28

I suppose it depends on how many you have in a unit, I suppose you don't HAVE to use the jump movement when going into or out of terrain. But say min 5 man squad, if you use your jump move to get into terrain then that's 5 dangerous terrain tests, and then jump move out that's another 5 dangerous terrain tests. They very quickly add up to dead hellions
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Feb 06 2017, 01:20

Walking into and out of terrain is another good idea I hadn't thought of. The difficult terrain issue is why I like putting them in bastions or FoRs. It gives you a way to avoid enemy fire until they get close enough to attack without having to worry about the Dangerous Terrain tests.
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Feb 06 2017, 02:25

Would they be good if they didn't suffer dangerous terrain tests though?  Hypothetically we could always place them behind cover and then use jump move to go over it but I feel like this slows them down somewhat.  Again, Reavers can be placed IN terrain because they have skilled rider USR.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I can't think of anything important that Hellions do that Reavers don't do better. Hellions have more bodies but the -1 Toughness means they're easier to kill point for point. Reavers have more melee attacks point for point, and they are at Strength 4 AP 5, but a lot of this advantage is diminished when you compare their HoW attacks. Hellions get a single Strength 3 hit compared to D3 Strength 4 Rending hits, and Hellions only get their hit when they activate their Jump packs in the assault phase, which I tend not to do as I'd rather pick up the guaranteed extra 6" over terrain than the re-roll through terrain (post FAQ) in the Assault phase. Reaver shooting is better since they shoot the same at 12" but have the option to shoot at 24". You can hide Reavers in terrain without penalty. They can cross the board in a single turn. They can JSJ. And all of this for a 3 point upgrade. If there is a situation where you'd be better served to spend the points on Hellions over Reavers I don't know what it is.

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I am very excited by the new 8th edition and what it will bring for Dark Eldar.  I have a hard time believing it will be overall worse than our situation as of 7th.  I am always happy to talk wishlisting and fandexes in any edition from 4-on.  I have written multiple fan codexes (3 and a "mini-fandex" which was totally ridiculous), the latest of which (for 7th edition) can be found here.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Feb 06 2017, 04:21

Giant clotted mobs of ork boyz? The AP6 would actually be beneficial.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Feb 06 2017, 07:46

The only thing they do better than reavers is die. Now at the moment this is not a good thing, but with the rule leaks for GS2, mobile cannon fodder could be useful. I've got some ideas about forcing your opponent to trigger a soulburst action, but it does eventually hinge on the mobile cannon fodder being a perceived threat.
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CombatDrugs4Life
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Mar 05 2017, 03:16

Chances of failing dangerous terrain, your save and your 5+fnp are 1 in 11. 5 models have a 45% chance of taking a wound. Thats good enough for a 65 pt unit to soak some overwatch, since charging out is a disordered charge. If you can charge 2 seperate units thats kind of a big deal. Its risky but winning cuz you take big risks is always fun. I will definitely try my hellions in casual games. If anyone else tries this and succeeds, make sure you remind your opponent that they are your puppet. Wage the psychological war! Say "and now i will assault with my hellions, a-boo-ah-haha" like somehow everyone else foolishly underestimates them, but you know the secret.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Mar 06 2017, 07:32

@Ohnaka wrote:
@Sarkesian Hellions do have I6 by default though, so they Auto-Pass Hit and Run tests (unless there is something I am missing). So that big blob of 20 can leave assault, Pummel their unlucky targets with poison again and then recharge!

Might be useful as a Horde killer!

Unfortunately, a 6 is always a fail, so they won't pass every single time. Most of the time, but not every time.

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CombatDrugs4Life
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Mon Mar 06 2017, 16:21

So here's another thought, turn 4 hit and run and join a haemy to the unit for the turn 5 charge. They will have rage and furious charge. Hellions seem like they're a lot better late game. Rolling the right drugs means 4 S5 attacks or 3 S6 attacks on the charge, plus HoW. 2/3 we dont get those drugs but extra WS or T is still decent enough. I might forfeit with extra initiative lol its the brown acid of combat drugs.
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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Mar 07 2017, 18:35

@Mr Believer wrote:
@Ohnaka wrote:
@Sarkesian Hellions do have I6 by default though, so they Auto-Pass Hit and Run tests (unless there is something I am missing). So that big blob of 20 can leave assault, Pummel their unlucky targets with poison again and then recharge!

Might be useful as a Horde killer!

Unfortunately, a 6 is always a fail, so they won't pass every single time. Most of the time, but not every time.

Aw well thats a shame. Still like you said, should work 5/6 times.....Still not great.
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