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KaliYuga
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PostSubject: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 13:13

Hey.

Got them with gangs of gomorra, never had the models: they look fantastic....


...skipping all the considerations we all know (they suck)

Any potential role they could cover in your opinion?

Usually play heavy bike msu, more venoms than raiders.

Wonder how they could fit in without just stealing points.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 14:26

I´d use them as beast masters.
They are cheaper and beats, so you can use them as shooty units hidden in cover and go maximum MSU with them.

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KaliYuga
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 15:08

Beastmasters flock with agoniser for the troll?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 15:23

Hellions aren't good except to use as something else. I use mine as jetpack Corsairs.

I assume you meant Gangs of Commorragh?

Because I'm a huge Deadlands fan and I would also be thrilled by a Gangs of Gomorra game. Smile
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 15:34

When I use them (in casual games, obviously) I do so as a disruption unit. 5 barebone hellions deepstriking into cover in the enemy backline. Then I use them as a shooting unit until they get furious charge, when they gain Strengh 5 and can do something in assault. I use an animus vitae Succubus in casual play so this usually happens turn 3.

Once I got the +1S drug and they were GLORIOUS. Never happened again though and they most often than not their only contribution is just dying horribly.

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KaliYuga
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 15:41

Which is a nice contribution indeed, for the lulz of the gunboats crews filming it with phones
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sun Jan 29 2017, 18:25

Jump units can embark in buildings, unlike most vehicles.

I have had some limited success running a Void Shielded Fortress of Redemption packed to the gills with Hellions. Their jump packs give them a greater ability to assault out of it. (Specifically, they can get out of the battlements, land on the ground, and charge immediately.) You can also start other skimmy units on top of the battlements to get the protection of the Void Shields (transports, Reavers, etc).
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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 11:32

I'm butchering mine and glueing them together with Talos bits to make a "horrific fleshy death squid" to use as a counts-as-chronos. Or at least thats the plan once my box arrives!

On hellions....I was originally planning to use 20 as a giant distraction unit, and mobile cover for my skimmers. Then I realized they are jump infantry and thus a bit slow...

They put out a lot of fire power though! A full unit of 20 would chuck out 40 poison shots when they deepstrike!

But they just cost too much for what they do.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 17:13

Would 20 Hellions work as a giant wall to ensure no escape when you attempt a Tank Shock? I imagine (if they can get into position) that they would take up a lot of space. Add the 40 poison shots and the potential S6 attacks, they aren't terrible. They are a hybrid Warrior/Wych with better movement.

There is something missing from this unit that makes them good/purposeful. Better melee? Better shooting? Jinking without BS reduction? Being troops? Hit and run at initiative?
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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 17:53

I would LOVE IT, if they became troops! Or if we got a formation for them so that they didn't take up my Fast Attack slots!

In fact IF they became troops, they would be a lot more popular, currently they compete with reavers for their slot; and they really do not come out on top in that competition.

@Sarkesian Hellions do have I6 by default though, so they Auto-Pass Hit and Run tests (unless there is something I am missing). So that big blob of 20 can leave assault, Pummel their unlucky targets with poison again and then recharge!

Might be useful as a Horde killer!
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 17:56

I was thinking more along the lines of hit and run at initiative step. So after they shoot, charge, and attack, they flee combat before lower initiative models even attack.
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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 17:57

Oh right! Hell(ion) yeah that would be a great buff! In fact I think that would make them 100% better!

I'm tempted to take a unit of 20 now though....not sure it would be worth the points though.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 21:19

Flee combat at initiative sounds almost broken if hellions weren't so bad. Being able to hit before the enemy is already a large bonus, getting away without taking any swings back is a little too dirty.

I think a unit of 20 can kill roughly 7 marines with a full round of shooting and mêlée,(do they get HoR?) leaving 3 to swing back killing let's say 2-3 hellions, and your remaining 18 should be able to finish the job in the opponent's mêlée phase leaving you free to move to the next target. That's the best use of them I can think of but that's 300 pts of squishy infantry to kill ~150 pts of SM. That's assuming so many things though that it's practically impossible unless you're playing against a newer player or you're dang good.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 21:42

HnR at initiative would justify their excessive price.
But yes, it would break them since they could virtually be wounded in CC only by HoW.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 22:25

You could make it more of a gamble by saying if they roll a 4+ on the HnR roll they flee combat at the initiative step. If not then they are stuck in combat. I just imagine in my mind super fast gliders zooming in and out of the combat. Or even a 3+ isn't asking too much for a glass unit.
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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Tue Jan 31 2017, 23:22

I'd lean towards 4+ as I do see how it could get excessive if Hellions were buffed in any other way alongside the HoR at initiative
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Feb 03 2017, 09:26

It's been a while since I last used hellions, infact an edition ago. I use to run them with the baron so they where troops and had stealth. But if we are wish listing / fixing them all they need is the following:

Stealth
Become jet pack but with a 12" move (or 2D6).
Automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.


Last edited by der-al on Fri Feb 03 2017, 18:41; edited 1 time in total
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Olsol
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Feb 03 2017, 12:42

I'm about to pick up a Gangs of Commorragh box and have 2 squads of 5 in deep strike reserve to grab objectives if I need them (they're 65 points for a min squad which is pretty good).

plus I'm moving the reavers into the Start collecting: DE box formation to give them PE. so I have more space for my scourges
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Fri Feb 03 2017, 12:44

I´m not sold on them. A Venom is about the same and can have more Dakka and is more resilent.
Sure, the Hellions can attack in Close combat.
Well, feel free to try it and tell us how it went. Smile

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 03:20

The way I tried to fix Hellions is I swapped their Splinter pods with a Twin-Linked Splinter rifle (why complicate things with another Splinter weapon?), made Combat Drugs useful on every roll (that's armywide), and changed their unit type from Jump infantry to Eldar Jetbikes.  The only catches are that they only turbo boost 6" (still better than normal running) and they do not get +1 Toughness they only get +1 to their armor (just like they always have).  I gave them Plasma grenades and the option for Haywire, and most non-coven units in my fandex have a rule which guarantees a 5" charge distance and makes 10" charges very reliable.  Finally I gave them a special rule which adds one to the tally if you win combat, and helliarch can buy wargear for an additional +1.  This way you can MSU them and tag them on to 'tip the scales' of a combat and increase the chances you'll be able to make a sweeping advance.  And of course they can be taken in a couple of tailor-made formations.

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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 09:26

@Tounguekutter the 6" turbo boost doesn't make much sense to me? If you do this you forgo your 2D6 movement in the assault phase and your shooting?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 12:02

Excuse me, but a fan codex isn't the topic here. "What if.." isn't the topic. But rather "what can we do...".
My apologies if this sounds like a douchebag but I'm more interested in solutions than dreams.

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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 13:39

you are right @CptMetal we should get back on track.

Now we all know Hellions arn't competitive. So heres some "fun" ideas for friendly games:

Hellion wall? 20 hellions flying in front of MSU reavers and skimmers, confirming a 5+ cover save for the units behind it (it would be quite easy to get the 25% obscured with THAT MANY Hellions up front). Stick Night Shields on your raiders and ravagers you have a 4+ save WITHOUT jinking (more useful on a ravager) which is pretty nice as it keeps your Dark Lances poping tanks for another couple of turns.

We could also look to the fluff, Hellions are hired as expendable chaff by Archons. They could serve this roll in game too (though they take up one of your crowded Fast Attack slots) Chuck some Hellions onto the board in front of your units and scream them straight towards the enemy while you hang back and snipe with your dark lances and wait for your FnP to kick in. A turn spent shooting those Hellions is a turn not spent shooting stuff that will win you the game. The drawback is that the Hellions will cost 260pts...Way too much for what you get.

But we all knew Hellions sucked already...
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 14:14

I can only think of them as multiple 5 dude squads to deep Strike behind enemy lines and harass back field units. If you use two cad it would be possible. And a lucky roll on the drug table would make them more effective

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Sat Feb 04 2017, 14:36

@cptmetal. You're quite correct.

I haven't used them this edition but I used to run them in the last and they did a job. The only way I could get them to work was to run one or two big squads (15 - 20) and keep them in reserve, popping out of a WWP or if starting on the board with the baron and over load on threats. They kill things in shooting, they killed all manor of MC.

I've never used them in this edition, I found them difficult to use in the last and they are even worse. But I suppose you could use them as a couple of throw away skermisher units, deep striking in as late game as possible to disrupt the back lines or create threat over load. But they eat up fast attack slots and are not point efficient.
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