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sumguy777
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PostSubject: scourges   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:03

i know the usual consensus is to use haywire blasters or heat lances. personally like heat lances. anyway i keep finding that i have trouble killing giant stupid things. ex imerial knights, and wraith kinghts and so on. and everyone loves to play them in my area. is it okay to use blasters in this case to give me an aid at taking them down? or am i doing something wrong?
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:18

Blasters would be better against GMC

Heat lances vs knights.

Blasters would be okay, but honestly I'd stick to the Heat lances. Vs knights you need to focus one down from all sides.

Vs GMC I think you're better suited to use ravagers from a distance.

Just my take

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:19

So let's break this down: Imperial knights are Vehicles. Super Heavy Vehicles, but Vehicles. Wraithknights are GMC's. Darklight is not particularly effective against a wraithknight and someone, I think Betray, did the math out on it and you'd need darklight on basically every unit in your army AND have them spend the entire game shooting at them to take down a wraithknight. Still better then the ~150+ shots it takes splinter fire to do it. We can't effectively kill a wraithknight. Freakshow tactics with harlequin allies can tho.

Back to the walker scenario: Super Heavy Vehicles are not scary. You've just opted not to use the best thing in the army, and one of the best things in the game, against them in favor of their inferior siblings. Since Penetrating hit's on a SHV only matter in terms of additional damage if you actually do roll a 7, and scourges have no means of reroll, so that is unlikely to happen. For that reason you've essentially downed your self within 9" of a target in order to scrape off as many hullpoints as Haywire Scourges do at 2 feet, more reliably.

Blasters on Scourges are a waste of points. You'll be innoculated against anything short of 3+knights or a stompah if you take 2 units with haywire, 1 unit with a heatlance, and some other source of AV. Caress Players might be good for you, deepstriking d-flamer wraithguard would be better.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:32

Here is the details on darklight shots vs. wraithknights if anyone wants it. Click me!:
 

So yeah, Darklight is not particularly efficient. D-weapons or psychic shriek are the best ways to kill GMCs, which requires us to take allies.

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Thu Jan 26 2017, 22:46

If you want to kill a Wraithknight, box it in with Raiders and then tank shock it. Alternatively bring an Aspect Host of Warp Spiders for like 315 points, deep strike them on the Knight, and light it up. Alternatively just bring like 12 squads of warriors and feed it 5 man squads the entire game.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 00:13

I think they changed the tank shock ruling in the FAQ.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 04:03

You are correct and that FAQ explicitly doesn't allow you to kill tank shock a unit that only has one member any more unless that unit is a planted stormsurge. It may also apply to some other fringe case but I know of no other way to immobilize a unit with a toughness.

The real problem with dealing with a wraith knight for us is that it is basically 3 wave serpents when abstracted properly. Unfortunately our best weapon against a wave serpent is haywire, and haywire won't do anything outside of that abstraction.

Fleshbane could do it. Unfortunately our only fleshbane doesn't have nearly enough attacks. AP3 on a decent strength could too. I think our best option might actually be grotesques with shred. Even with the save they do just barely average 2 lethal dose wounds on the charge shred should put this into the resoundly average 2 territory and may even put us a good way up to 3 on average I'm having trouble calculating that modifier at present. The reason it works is that each of those wounds will generate d3 additional wounds. Unfortunately GW never addressed the "does the GMC rule regarding instant death occur before or after the wound is allocated, or more to the point do GMC's still get to take Feel no Pain against such wounds?" So it's at TO/event FAQ discretion. If they can't it's dead on average in 1 turn if they can and it's sword and board you're fully dead before you swing on your next turn if they get even 1 good stomp.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 05:11

Warp spiders don't wound it well and it gets its 3+ and then FNP

As BtW said, with no cover, 28 lances should be the end of a WK. For me - my typical list would take all of turn 1 and most of turn 2 in lance range to kill it.

Poison is far worse... 250 poison shots should kill a WK - which interestingly is not that hard to do with DE over a couple of turns (though its woefully inefficient).

On the knight front, heat lances are ok when in melta range - otherwise you are better off with the blasters. Assuming they have a 4++ all the time, you need 36 lance shots. Without the 4+ its 18. Bank on 24 and you should be fine so long as you mix the points of attack to maximise the lack of shields.

Haywire on the other hand is far more effective. 22 haywire BS4 shots is enough to pop a night through the shield. 12 is enough without the shield.

I expect most DE lists will have a combo of haywire and lance to eliminate a knight reasonably quickly... but its still horribly inefficient which ever way you look at it

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 05:18

If taken in the formation warp spiders are actually almost fine. Wounds on 3's 30 attacks at equal cost, 25 hit, if you didn't get any 6's they save half and negate another third that's still 8 wounds and it's still dead.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 05:35

amorrowlyday wrote:
If taken in the formation warp spiders are actually almost fine. Wounds on 3's 30 attacks at equal cost, 25 hit, if you didn't get any 6's they save half and negate another third that's still 8 wounds and it's still dead.
This is how it worked both times I used them against WKs.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 06:23

I wish Shredders also had the monofilament rule, although I'm glad that they have at least the Shred special rule.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 06:35

30 shots = 20 hits = 14 wounds (3 of which will be 6's).
11 wounds = 2 wounds after saves and fnp
3 '6' wounds = 2 wounds after fnp (its closer to 1 if they have cover or the shield.)

In the aspect host...
30 shots = 25 hits = 17 wounds (4 of which will be 6's).
13 wounds = 3 wounds after saves and fnp
4 '6' wounds = 3 wounds after fnp (its closer to 2 if they have cover or the shield.)

Outside of BS 5 - the spiders wont on average kill the WK. Inside the host - its possible but still a little iffy. When you work with whole numbers and round up like I have here it says it dies (which I did because dice don't do decimal points) but with fractions included the WK is about 50/50 to survive on at least 1 wound


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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 06:42

The spiders match the WK point for point, perhaps even edge it out because it will realistically only be able to kill 1 squad of spiders per turn, leaving the remaining ones to continue pummeling it. Honestly though, if there's only 1 WK, you don't really *have* to deal with it. It's a big Eldar skeleton, it's there to spook you. Just thank it for the calcium and ignore it.

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 07:50

They are actually 10 pts cheaper than the wraithknight.

I think my original calculation was off because I processed 3+ as 50/50 for whatever reason, since that gives me the result I cited. I'd also note that your end result does have a positive skew of .055. So it's a little more than average, on average, going to die outright, presuming double cannon in the open.

As to your results either way that's still significantly cheaper than flooding it with darklight. 6 squads of trueborn, which incidentally can do it without giving their raiders dark lances even though that's only 24 shots as the sum total of dissies amounts to 1.25 unsaved wounds on average, which I believe knocks betrays amount tally down to 24 darklight weapons (28 shots over 6 wounds is 4.666 shots per unsaved wound) costs 1020pts.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 09:56

Why feel No Pain? If you got the Instant Death rule, he can't use his feel No Pain anymore...

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 10:22

Because nothing we have been talking about (outside of D weapons) has the ID rule?

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 12:05

Yes, we did. Someone mentioned Flesh bane attacks against gigantic creatures.

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 19:11

Fleshbane doesn't automatically have instant death. They were referring to the "lethal dose" on flesh gauntlets carried by grotesques, which grants "instant death" on a 6 to wound. But then there is some debate as to whether the "instant death" even invalidates FnP on GMCs because GMCs have a rule that says whenever they would be hit with instant death, they are not effected by instant death, but instead recieve d3 wounds. So it's debatable whether or not it still stops GMCs from using FnP.

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 20:56

Betray is correct.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 22:42

TeenageAngst wrote:
The spiders match the WK point for point, perhaps even edge it out because it will realistically only be able to kill 1 squad of spiders per turn, leaving the remaining ones to continue pummeling it. Honestly though, if there's only 1 WK, you don't really *have* to deal with it. It's a big Eldar skeleton, it's there to spook you. Just thank it for the calcium and ignore it.

lol, so what is the consensus then avoid if you cant kill it and try to win the objective war? I mean going eldar to kill an eldar army seems bad. theres not another way to take them down? with what we have? and if not whats the best way to avoid besides hugging terrain?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 23:08

Plenty of non-eldar factions can deal with wraithknights in their own way. We're just not one of them, and our most natural ally is Eldar, so of course the ally we'd call in to deal with them would most easily be eldar. Alternatively, if that doesn't sit well with you, you could ally in white scar grav centurions with the hunter's eye on an ajoined character. That squashes wraithknights pretty handily too.

Essentially, this is a weakness almost unique to the Dark Eldar as a faction in the current meta. We were basically the last codex released before a massive shift in overall power level of the game that left us sort of reeling in the dust of our "betters", who were almost all designed AFTER modern GMCs and wraithknights existed in their current form, and therefore were designed with more ways to deal with them. GMCs are basically the hard counter to dark eldar, when it used to be the opposite. I think the fact that DE were able to kill massive MCs so easily before was percieved to be negatively impacting sales of these large, expensive models, and so they created the GMC rules and applied that title more liberally to models in order to make them less susceptible to getting instagibbed by an all poison army(For instance, the wraithknight used to just be a normal Monstrous Creature). Unfortunately, GW isn't known for extensive playtesting, and did their job a bit too well, making us almost completely unequipped to deal with the leviathon they'd unleashed. But because we are a fringe army and had just received a codex and a supplement, we wouldn't get any further attention in the near term despite being massively broken by a multitude of layered factors. Hopefully, that time is coming to an end with the rumoured new releases.

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Fri Jan 27 2017, 23:44

dont get me wrong i have no problem with eldar as an ally. i just find it funny that we are fighting fire with fire. thats all. i see what you saying about the codex thing now too. never really thought of that but it makes perfect sense.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Sat Jan 28 2017, 01:44

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Plenty of non-eldar factions can deal with wraithknights in their own way. We're just not one of them, and our most natural ally is Eldar, so of course the ally we'd call in to deal with them would most easily be eldar. Alternatively, if that doesn't sit well with you, you could ally in white scar grav centurions with the hunter's eye on an ajoined character. That squashes wraithknights pretty handily too.

Essentially, this is a weakness almost unique to the Dark Eldar as a faction in the current meta. We were basically the last codex released before a massive shift in overall power level of the game that left us sort of reeling in the dust of our "betters", who were almost all designed AFTER modern GMCs and wraithknights existed in their current form, and therefore were designed with more ways to deal with them. GMCs are basically the hard counter to dark eldar, when it used to be the opposite. I think the fact that DE were able to kill massive MCs so easily before was percieved to be negatively impacting sales of these large, expensive models, and so they created the GMC rules and applied that title more liberally to models in order to make them less susceptible to getting instagibbed by an all poison army(For instance, the wraithknight used to just be a normal Monstrous Creature). Unfortunately, GW isn't known for extensive playtesting, and did their job a bit too well, making us almost completely unequipped to deal with the leviathon they'd unleashed. But because we are a fringe army and had just received a codex and a supplement, we wouldn't get any further attention in the near term despite being massively broken by a multitude of layered factors. Hopefully, that time is coming to an end with the rumoured new releases.

Tyranids would like to have a word in this conversation too. They are in at least as bad a spot as DE and they can't tale Eldar or Harlequins as an ally.
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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Sat Jan 28 2017, 01:52

Quote :
lol, so what is the consensus then avoid if you cant kill it and try to win the objective war? I mean going eldar to kill an eldar army seems bad. theres not another way to take them down? with what we have? and if not whats the best way to avoid besides hugging terrain?

Honestly, you pretty much just ignore it. Don't be stupid, like make sure not to feed it important units, but the #1 fatal flaw when dealing with big units like that is people automatically assume they have to be dealt with. It moves 12" a turn, is nasty in close combat, and can have 2 strong guns. Aside from that there's not much to worry about. For the same 295 points it costs, you could run 3 units of warriors in boats, which is realistically the most it would be able to kill over the course of an entire game if you maneuver yourself right, so it all balances out.

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PostSubject: Re: scourges   Sat Jan 28 2017, 03:52

mattblowers wrote:

Tyranids would like to have a word in this conversation too. They are in at least as bad a spot as DE and they can't tale Eldar or Harlequins as an ally.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Essentially, this is a weakness almost unique to the Dark Eldar as a faction in the current meta.

I agree. Tyranids are why the orange word was there. Wink

Though, I'd think a swarmlord or a melee-teched hive tyrant with bone swords would at least put up a good fight against a non-melee teched wraithknight. I can't recall...does the swarm lord have eternal warrior?

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