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|Meavar
Wych
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PostSubject: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 07:31

After being away from 40k for some years and rarely playing even then I decided to rekindle my love for dark elder. I would like it based loosely around wyches. Now wyches are not that great in itself unfortunately. But their offshoots are great (reavers) or ok (beastmasters).
I do want the army to stand a chance, but do not have to have the best of everything.

I have some miniatures (partly painted) (10 kabalites, 5 wyches, 1 venom, and 3 mandrakes)

So I was thinking I will start with a kill team 200pt

5 kabalites, 5 wyches a venom and 3 mandrakes

I really like the look of the hellions and wiches (even if I know they are not the best) and was considering buying a Gangs of commorragh box.

So when upgrading to 500 pts
I thought I could ad
3 reavers CC
5 hellions
4 *1 beastmaster
venom
lahmian
5 kabalites

Do you think converting the hellions to scourges by giving more armor and ranged weapons (I desperately lack anti tank) would generally be acceptable when I play in GW? I think the scourges are really good stat wise for bringing anti tank. But even with the new sculpts I do not like their feel much and prefer the more wych like hellions.
Same goes for modeling a Venom with 3 wyches with dark lances, would that be ok for a Ravager?

In which case I could ad:
3 reavers CC
5 scourges blasters/heat lances/ haywire
venom
lahmian
5 kabalites

I will play against quite a diverse crowd but most commong being: Orcs (mainly speed freaks), Space marines, Tau, Chaos space marines + deamons, Nids, Inquisitors, Eldar.

Any advise and tips are helpful.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 08:06

My rule of thumb for counts as, and mind that I run events at an flg so your experience may be even more restrictive being a GW location itself, is volumetric equivalence. A hellion will never take up the same volume as a scourge.

That said, rule of cool holds A LOT of weight and probably even more weight than usual at GW if it's all GW bits. Check with your local community.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 13:13

The idea of volume makes sense.

Thus a venom would need to be extended a bit (and possibly heightened? to be used as a ravaner.

Isn't the volume of the hellion and scourge is still rather similar? (both are man sized models, one has large wings which do not count and once has a board (of which most are wings which do not count)? Or am I missing something?

Still not a clear yes, so I should definetly check with the local store.
Then one other question would a few single beastmasters/ beast help make wyches more viable? Because then I could take smallish squads (say 5ish) and let overwatch be eaten by the single beast? Thus while still not terribly great against true cc experts for under 100 points I would have a unit which could beat most ME and weaker equivalents? Or do people have other good ideas on how to use wyches?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 18:56

Because the model is on a flyer base the board counts in its entirety. And if you don't put them on flyerbases hellions are waaaaaay too short. They're actually undersized from the rest of the line.

As for the beast master strat. No. Everyone is under this delusion that wyches are bad because of overwatch loses but that's simply untrue. They are bad because they are S3, therefore can't reliably wound anything tougher than a basic guardsman, and aren't fearless so when you take even 2 wounds in combat you're likely going to get swept and lose the rest of them for free.

THAT is why wyches are bad.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:16

@amorrowlyday: I agree on why wyches are bad. And that widely incorrect feeling is not helped by the mass of people who claim dodge working outside of combat will fix wyches.

As for the hellions...when you say flyer base, you mean the same small, approximately 40mm clear base that reavers come on, right? Not like a venom base or something?

Do people put hellions on infantry bases?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:25

Yes I do mean the same bases reavers come on.

I also made a set of modular 32's for mine when the new version of IA11 came out in order to run malevolents. I did it to differentiate between them if hellions ever got new rules, but I thought to do that because I saw someone modeling them that way for quasi-advantage at the end of 6th.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Jan 26 2017, 20:39

Oh, ok. I've never seen someone try to put them on infantry 32's. Would have to give them the stink eye if they ever put that down on a table against me, haha.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Feb 02 2017, 12:45

OK so I got the gang box Very Happy

I assembled the first models. I really like the look of the hellions. But I am unsure what to do give them. Would a a unit of 9 with an agoniser be better and one converted to a beastmaster. Or would it be better to not give them an agoniser, or keep the unit small (5 models) and make all the others beastmasters? Is the unit so bad that it does not matter much and the points are waisted anyway so their loadout does not matter much?
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Draco
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Feb 02 2017, 14:04

Before worrying about unit sizes and loadout, whats your goal? Are you aiming for a 1250, 1500, 2kpt army? That would help with what you plan on buying in the future, and helping with weapon choices based on army composition.
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Feb 02 2017, 14:49


Right now I have only around 500 pt worth, and not completely assembled yet.
I hope to get it reasonably fast to 1000/1250. I think those games are ok (usually no imperial titans and few flyers I hope).
Eventually it must grow bigger. But if people really want to I can ad in some eldar.
I prefer to stay pure, but I do have some old eldar lying around a falcon, some scorpions, some guardians, seer, seer on a bike, rangers, warwalker, 3 jetbikes, vyper.
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Draco
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Thu Feb 02 2017, 14:52

@|Meavar wrote:

Right now I have only around 500 pt worth, and not completely assembled yet.
I hope to get it reasonably fast to 1000/1250. I think those games are ok (usually no imperial titans and few flyers I hope).
Eventually it must grow bigger. But if people really want to I can ad in some eldar.
I prefer to stay pure, but I do have some old eldar lying around a falcon, some scorpions, some guardians, seer, seer on a bike, rangers, warwalker,  3 jetbikes, vyper.

Your bread and butter units are going to be Venoms, Raiders, and Kabalites. After those, it's really up to you to decide how competitive you want the list to be, or if you plan on just playing cool looking models. The community can give you an easy list of "best", and "worst" units.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 04:33

Hi, thank you for the advise.

But right now I am not really looking for best/ worst units listing. While I like winning I am not planning on any tournament soon so I am not looking for the most competitive army. I want a cool looking army that has some chance at winning. I know I will probably need some more venoms and something to deal with tanks.

I really like the hellion models, so I know I will be fielding them. I am now modeling my hellions, so I was hoping I could get some advice on how best to field them (small unit/big unit, with agoniser and champion or without). So possibly more on how to make the most of units than on which units. For instance the reavers are usually taken with cluster caltrops and sometimes with heating lances, but not that often, so I will probably model my reavers with cluster caltrops. But since I rarely see people field hellions I have no idea if a 5 strong unit is large enough to do anything, or much to small, if giving the leader an agonizer helps or is just a waste since they should not go after marines anyway?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 05:06

What does an agonizer do for you? I'm not going to explain to you the nuance of why you should or shouldn't field something. There is pages upon pages in the tactics subforum dedicated to that. All I want to do is get you to think through your decisions and come to this conclusion on your own. That's how we come across new styles.

What does an agonizer do for you that a base model doesn't? And how many points is it costing you to do that? What opportunity cost is lost by taking the agonizer over something else?

While you are processing that I'll give you a bauble: There is only one reasonable use they have mathematically in the game: 15+ strong without a sgt but with both an attached prince with a shard of Anaris, shadowfield, divination, and jetpack; and a level 3 void dreamer with a jetpack and a mastercrafted tanglefield grenade. It can also be done with Drug prince and reaper of the outer dark prince variants but this is the strongest by far due to fearless since it's punch drops dramatically without prescience and/or the aethermancy primaris and if you aren't fearless then things get a lot more dangerous.

To remand that defect the combo has to have a jump autarch mule that shard around for them which incidentally allows you to either be able to split the squads attention over 2 units a turn by only shooting at things 8+ inches away from you that way you can cut throw 30 splinter shots at 1 unit and then charge something else for safety then hit and run out on their turn, or you'll have a fluffy baron if you opt for drugs.

At the end of the day they are extreme budget reavers, with deep strike, a significantly larger squad size and point for point more S4 hits tho lacking rending.
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 05:47

The problem is that some factors are hard to judge.
Just in damage the difference is slightly in favour of the larger squad, except against marines, but it is more that how big a footprint is usually still considered ok. I know that is often what the 3/6 reaver discussion comes down to, 3 reavers are easier to hide, but with 6 you can have more in your CaD.

What the agonizer does for me in theorycrafting:

It helps me win combats against marines XD
7 hellions vs tau 14A>7H>3.5W>1.16dead +7HoW>7H>2.33W>0.77dead =1.94dead marines
5 hellions and agonizer vs tau 8A>4>2>0.66 + 3A>1.5H>0.75W>0.75dead +5HoW>5H>1.66W>0.55 dead = 1.96
So in actual combat the difference is nihil.

Otherwise the agoniser costs me 2 wounds
Unless you consider that the whole unit will be killed anyway and I can put 1 model out of sight, thus  the bigger punch on a smaller footprint is really important, I assume usually the 2 wounds and extra shots are better. But these factors are harder to judge on how important they are.


Last edited by |Meavar on Fri Feb 03 2017, 06:37; edited 2 times in total
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 05:49

I would say since you are aiming for the cool factor primarily I would definitely find a friend who is willing to bring his not competitive list so that you can actually play enjoyable games that won't be stacked against you. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is hypothetically possible for someone to bring a Wraithknight in a 1000 point game.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 06:07

Oh easily It doesn't really get hard to until you get down to 600.

HoW is at S3. So you aren't looking at half wounds vs marines you are looking at 1/3. That changes the math around a little bit and to my surprise it might actually make it worth it over the bodies. That said I also think you should probably be taking these in larger squads.
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 06:15

@ Tounguekutter
Jeah it is entirely possible to do that, I just hope it does not happen.
Mainly I think some things are slightly broken, it then becomes a mixture of a rock paper scissors match and or an who can buy the biggest titan instead of a tactical wargame. If someone will bring 1 wraithknight I will just ignore it and hope it does not kill me completely, if someone brings multiple I just won't play him afterwards.
The problem is that I think 40k is inherently horribly balanced and this edition more so than previous editions. SO jeah I go more for the cool factor than for competitive games. And thus am more interested in finding out how I can make use/ get the most out of my cool things, and not on how I can field the winning army. If I wanted that I would probably play a lighter shade of elder.

@ amorrowlyday
ok thanks (But I did do 1/3 from to wound with HoW)
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 06:33

Ah. Then my conclusion is backwards: HoW are autohits. so that's MORE wounds. and it turns out to be a wash.
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Fri Feb 03 2017, 06:39

Ow now that is a good point, and your initial estimate that agoniser would not help is correct once more. Very Happy

Thanks for catching my mistakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Another newby   Mon Feb 27 2017, 11:51

OK I got 2 games in this weekend.
The opponents also agreed to take a bit weaker fluff lists.

My list ended up being everything I own:
6 reavers 2CC
9 hellions
1 beastmaster
2*5 Kabalites (haywire champion and blaster).
1 of them in a venom
Sslyth
2*5 wyches (haywire hexatrix)
3 mandrakes
3 incubi

One game versus imperial guard. Lots of blobs.
Here there was quite some cover and I was able to conceal myself the first turn. the second turn I assaulted with all my fast stuff, while the lone beastmaster claimed an objected.
And I more or less managed to destroy one of his flanks by turn 3, the middle of the board by turn 4 and then we called it since he only had some heavy guns and command squad left while I still had so many units left (often 1 or 2 guys) to claim objectives that he could not kill or reach, so it was a clear victory.

The second game went much worse. It was against a White scar player.
He had 2 units bikes one including a techpriest, 2 landspeeders 1 stormlandspeeder with scouts, 1 unit scouts.

There was not enough spots to hide completely so one unit out in the open and another unit in cover was killed in his first turn (wyches and a unit of kabalites). (The kabalites did make the first 6 cover saves on 5+).
Then I advanced shot 1 bike with the hellions and the rest of the shooting was useless, while everything advanced to get cover so most could claim cover from a tower in the middle. assaulted his second unit of bikes with my reavers (where he killed 1 and I killed 1), he failed his hit and run.

His turn 2 he shot and assaulted with his scouts from the stormspeeder  into my kabalites killing 4 and i also killed 1. His bikes charged my hellions (he killing like 3 in shooting and 2 in combat while I killed another bike) and left combat with hit and run. His scouts shot at the Sslyth in cover and only did 1 wound. His landspeeders killed the venom. The other unit bikers killed another reaver with me using hit and run.
In my turn the incubi killed 3 scouts with his champion using hit and run) and the wyches and hellions killed another biker (who killed the last hellions then used hit and run to get out of combat). The Sslyth kills the stormlandspeader and reavers kill another one of the landspeeders.
His turn 3: he kills the incubi with his bikes and the lone surviving scout.... Shoots most reavers who promptly fail their ld test (even with ld combat drugs).
I rally my reavers move my wyches forward. Charge the lone bike with my Sslyth (who dies from overwatch).
Hide the lone surviving kabalyte in the tower in the middle.
Turn 4 He kills the last reavers with his bikes and techpriest and shoot the rest at the kabalite who survives.
Mandrake finaly turn up, at the wrong side of the board. Wyches try to get to the lone biker but fail to get there, now being stranded in the open.

Turn 5, he kills some of the wyches and shoots most of his guys at the lone kabalyte who dies at the very last wound he could do...
Wyches try to hide While the mandrakes kill a bike

Game continues
Mandrakes get shot to bits despite a 2+ cover save and wyches die to overwatch.
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