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 Wych Cult. What do they need.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Jan 31 2017, 19:53

Im with @betraytheworld on this one. In fact, with my experience with harlequins I would argue that rending alone wouldnt make them competititive. In my opinion they would need an extra attack each. Bloodbrides could have WS5 on top of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 00:10

Actually, I think making the Venom Blade accessable to all characters and giving it Fleshbane would already mitigate the weakness against MCs a noticable degree already.

For dedicated MC hunting, Wracks should be the ones responsible for the job.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 00:21

Apparently they need completely new special rules and to be shared with a new faction that has access to Craftworld units.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 10:02

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Apparently they need completely new special rules and to be shared with a new faction that has access to Craftworld units.

Thats a shoehorned comment if I ever saw one. Laughing

We get it dude, you dont like the new supplement since it was announced. The whole forum knows as you spam it on every thread, relevant or not. Will you drop it already?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 10:04

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Definitely coming around to the Rending option TBH. What would it do to Wyches' efficacy against vehicles? Not particularly au fait with Rending vs vehicles, but it doesn't seem particularly fluffy for Wyches to be hacking apart AV10. Bladestorm both sounds fluffier, and restricts their attacks to units with a toughness value.

Very much agree with this. I have serious issues with slender Wyches taking on battle tanks with a dagger. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is one thing but bringing one to a tank battle is something else entirely!
all of these can ALREADY melee most vehicles to death with a standard CC weapon, and many aren't even MELEE focused units:

1. Tactical Marines(And every other type of space marine)
2. Ork Shoota Boyz (And every other type of actual Ork)
3. Every single daemon unit except nurglings and pink horrors.
4. Chaos space marines
5. Eldar Striking scorpions, shining spears, and of course wraithguard
6. Every single type of Harlequin(Some can even melee AV13+ vehicles)
7. Inquisition Daemonhosts, Arco-flagellants, and death cult assassins(all in wych price range)
8. Every single type of necron
9. Every single Tau of the infantry type except fire warriors, drones, and kroot.
10. Every type of Tyranid.
11. Countless special characters across the spectrum of factions.

So, basically, after looking into this, almost everything in 40k can hurt most vehicles in CC with normal CC weapons. So tell me again why it isn't fluffy for wyches to be able to hurt tanks in CC?

Most of the models you list above are, in fluff terms, significantly stronger than any Wych. Space Marines (including the chaos variety) are 7' tall, genetically engineered superhumans in powered armour. Orks are hulking humanoids described as "extremely muscular". Necrons are robots and I don't see anyone arguing that a Terminator (of the James Cameron variety) has any issues punching vehicles to death. Tau (nice try with the "every single Tau of the infantry type except..." line by the way - there are few, if any, Tau models with S4+ and/or Rending that aren't in, you know, giant robotic battlesuits) are in, you know, giant robotic battlesuits. Most Tyranids, daemonhosts, arco-flagellants, Wraithguard, most daemons, special characters (who are supposed to be...special) all described in fluffy terms as being either physically powerful or possessed of some kind of supernatural powers.

I don't have a problem with the vast majority of the above. The only ones that I would consider to be comparable to Wyches are Daemonettes, Harlequins, Death Cult Assassins and possibly Striking Scorpions, although I would argue that Howling Banshees are a more accurate comparison and they find themselves in a very similar position to Wyches when fighting vehicles. I don't really see why Slaaneshi daemons get Rending in the first place but they do and I guess I just have to live with it, plus Daemonettes are probably undercosted by a point or two. Harlequins get Furious Charge by default but Wyches do have the ability to get it, albeit only later on in games. Plus Harlequins cost 50% more than Wyches. Death Cult Assassins also cost 50% more than Wyches and I don't see any fluff reason for them to have S4 but there you go.

There's also a couple of other things to consider. Firstly, Wyches can already damage most vehicles in combat as they have plasma grenades. Secondly, as already mentioned, they have access to Furious Charge. Thirdly, combat drugs can give them +1S, although that is random. By adding Rending to them you are not just giving them the ability to damage AV10 vehicles. You are potentially giving them the ability to kill Land Raiders and Imperial Knights with a penknife!


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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 11:24

They won't be killing landraiders with a knife without some extreme luck. They'd have to roll +1S on drugs, live long enough to get furious charge, see a land raider on the table at that late point in the game, then score 2 6s in a row to put 1 glance on it. That's like hitting the lottery.

Sure, orcs and space marines get their ability to hurt vehicles through sheer force, as represented by their +1S compared to wyches. Wyches, on the other hand, could damage vehicles through precision strikes at things like electrical harnesses. You picked out specific units to compare to wyches, but the fact is that being able to hurt vehicles with a normal CC weapon is something like 90% of all models in 40k can do, so any argument that wyches shouldn't be able to cut some wires with a knife is silly. Let's not be silly.

Arguing that a specific melee unit shouldn't be able to kill a tank with a knife would have merit if dealing damage to tanks with knives wasn't the standard in the game system. The fact that it's standard means that if you make that argument when talking about a specific melee unit, you're arguing more for a handicap for that melee unit when compared to pretty much every other melee unit in the game than some sort of balancing aspect or to make them fit with the fluff. Wyches don't need a handicap. They've been handicapped long enough.

Rending for wyches!
Grenades all around!
Put them in stitches!
How's that sound? Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 11:39

We've discussed this often enough to know that we have differing opinions on what Wyches should be capable of. You asked why I don't think it's fluffy and I told you. You're free to agree or disagree as you choose.

Listing every unit in the game is pointless however when those units are not comparable to Wyches. I could argue that 90% of vehicles in the game are AV11+ so Venoms and Raiders should have better armour but that's rubbish as the vehicles are not comparable in price or purpose.

Of all the units you listed I whittled it down to a small number that were actually comparable and, of those, a single unit that was pretty similar in terms of both stats and point cost (Daemonettes). I really don't see any reason why they both should have Rending. I'd be perfectly happy for a Wych to be capable of destroying a Daemonette in close combat. I don't care if that Daemonette can also destroy a Rhino and I have no need for my Wych to be able to do so too just because the Daemonette can.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 11:56

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I have no need for my Wych to be able to do so too just because the Daemonette can.

This is the problem I have with how you're framing it. It isn't "just because the daemonette can", it's because almost every model in the game can, even many that aren't melee oriented. Wyches are almost the only melee-oriented unit in the game that CAN'T hurt vehicles. Might actually be the ONLY melee unit that can't, rather than almost. And that is silly.

You must have noticed how much more difficulty we have dealing with vehicles in the new edition with the lack of haywire grenades and other changes that have occurred. Lance spam used to work, because we had supporting things we could use to take out vehicles.

Now, suddenly ravagers are viewed as bad. Lance weapons didn't change. The support we're able to field with them did. Rending doesn't bring back that situation where wyches could instagib tanks like they used to with haywire grenades useable on every model, but it gives us a nice, happy medium that adds utility to our army and returns them to a weaker, supplemental backup role against vehicles.

But sure, let's agree to disagree.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 12:10

Nah I'm happy with my S3 Wyches not being able to hack apart tanks with knives. They've got Plasma Grenades/HWG Hekatrix if you really must do that in an emergency.

Bladestorm sounds so much more fitting, doesn't give them A/T capability that they may have to pay for in points, and has exactly the same effect against their intended targets.

If you want to fluff Daemonettes being able to hurt tanks then it's pretty simple. They're daemons. With daemon claws. Warpy stuff and suchlike Smile for Scorpions they've got a piece of wargear that enhances strength. Without that they'd be in the same boat as pretty much the rest of the Eldar.

I like the idea of Wyches being unable to scratch a tank, but if they're hopped up on 'roids or the pain of others suddenly they become able to punch one in the face until it blows up Smile

Besides, it's not as if we're hurting for light tank-busting ability what with HWB Scourges, S5 Grots, S5 Dissies, Caltrop Reavers and Blasters out the wazoo. I'd rather they spend the points deficit on changing something else to make Wyches useful, like making Dodge work in Overwatch, or improving Wych Weapons, or just make them cheaper overall Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 12:57

@Ynneadwraith wrote:

I like the idea of Wyches being unable to scratch a tank, but if they're hopped up on 'roids or the pain of others suddenly they become able to punch one in the face until it blows up Smile

This isn't practical or even useful in a game. We're talking about T3 models with a 6+ save. They'd be lucky to live long enough to THINK about getting furious charge. Much less depend on getting strength from combat drugs.

We need abilities we can depend on at least HAVING.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 13:15

I would like to give them poison and they could have a rule that force the enemy to skip overwatch. I also don´t think they really need to fight tanks, but should fight any kind of monster.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 13:21

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Ynneadwraith wrote:

I like the idea of Wyches being unable to scratch a tank, but if they're hopped up on 'roids or the pain of others suddenly they become able to punch one in the face until it blows up Smile

This isn't practical or even useful in a game. We're talking about T3 models with a 6+ save. They'd be lucky to live long enough to THINK about getting furious charge. Much less depend on getting strength from combat drugs.

We need abilities we can depend on at least HAVING.

Exactly. It's a nice bonus you might possibly get if you're lucky, which is exactly what Wyches CCing a tank should be.

They're a troops choice in an army with plenty of other options for A/T. They're absolutely no need or requirement for Wyches to be able to beat AV10 in CC (as you've said, they've got a t-shirt save and T3 so if they attack a tank they're dead meat next turn). Why would I want to pay for something that will very rarely if ever be used?

I agree that we need abilities we can depend on having, but giving Wyches A/T beyond the HWG/Plasma Grenade they have is not an ability that I'd particularly care to pay for.

I'd much rather give them Bladestorm and knock a point off (compared to full price with Rending). Or give them Bladestorm and something else neat, like the Dodge save working against Overwatch. They still end up much killier in the combats they'll actually be in, which is what we really want from them anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 13:29

@Calindor wrote:
I would like to give them poison and they could have a rule that force the enemy to skip overwatch. I also don´t think they really need to fight tanks, but should fight any kind of monster.  

Exactly Smile it's about intended targets, from the fluff of what Wyches are. They're gladiators. They should be able to hold their own against a variety of different squishy targets. Also, it's about the gaps we currently have in our army.

One of the major gaps I see is the ability to deal with GMCs, given that Poison is 6+. Bladestorm would help slightly with that (I am right in thinking that it auto-wounds yes?). Another couple of fluffy additions would be to give Shardnets their old rules back (which also helps them against high-attack density blobs), making Razorflails grant additional attacks above the 2CCW rule (increased chance of a Rending hit), and maybe Hydra Gauntlets Fleshbane (giving us a points-efficient way to hurt GMCs).

How would a squad of Bloodbrides armed with Fleshbane Hydra Gauntlets fare against a Wraithknight math-hammer-wise?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 14:31

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
pay for.

You keep saying these two words, as if there is some formula that makes rending magically make wyches more expensive. It doesn't. Daemonettes are basically wyches with a 5+ invuln that works outside of combat, WS5, and rending. They're cheaper than wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 14:44

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Ynneadwraith wrote:
pay for.

You keep saying these two words, as if there is some formula that makes rending magically make wyches more expensive. It doesn't. Daemonettes are basically wyches with a 5+ invuln that works outside of combat, WS5, and rending. They're cheaper than wyches.

I'm saying these two words as part of the presumed thought process for a codex rewrite, which is what it would take to fix Wyches.

Now, I have no idea what level of thought goes into unit-pricing, but if I was doing it I'd be tempted to price a unit with Rending higher than a unit with Bladestorm. Even though the added capability they have would be suicidal to use it's still an added capability that they should pay for (compared to their non-rending price, not compared to their current overcosted price).

Just because Daemonettes are undercosted and Wyches are overcosted, does not mean that giving them both Rending is the best option. I would like to see Wyches gain WS5 though...

If you're looking for a quick and dirty fix with a Wych formation that gives all Wyches within it Rending then I can see where you're coming from when it comes to repricing, but really the best way to fix Wyches is a codex rewrite rather than a patch.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 15:47

Yes, a complete codex rewrite is probably the way to go(Phil K, please). However, I try to get threads like this to a conclusion of some sort, because(and this is probably just wishful thinking), if a GW researcher were to stumble upon this thread while trying to decide what quick, simple way to deal with wyches in a new codex, I'd rather have several people shown to agree with rending than have 6 different iterations of complicated combinations of special rules that don't currently exist, where what we end up with is a bastardization of the original idea, only partly implemented, and so ultimately ineffective. By making the solution simple(ie, give them rending and access to squad-wide haywire grenades for 1ppm) and universally heralded as a good idea, you basically make it idiot proof.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 15:52

If you're seeking universal agreement then you're barking up the wrong tree. There are those who agree with Rending and those who don't. There are those who agree with haywire and those who don't.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 16:04

Yeah that's an admirable goal, and I'd take Rending over nothing any day Smile

However, I think I'd prefer Bladestorm, Dodge that works in overwatch and better Wych Weapons over Rending Smile

Might be tricky to get a unanimous decision of how to fix Wyches, but if anyone at GW is watching then I think we all agree that something must be done...

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 18:14

Did I just read that DE have plenty of choices for AT?

Well, I guess thats technically correct. We do have a lot of AT options, only that all of them suck massive, sweaty balls.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 18:29

I think wyches getting either rending or a bladestorm type thing would be good, or having a rule that lets them always wound stuff on a 4+ with some sort of built in AP 4 would be good.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 19:13

Literally every tangent this conversation went down would be resolved outright with choice of drugs and +2 to power from pain.

Rending would be fluffy and make a ton of sense especially once you take into consideration how much of a "rending" style effect dropping a crescent wrench into an engine has on a machine. Every vehicle in the game has exposed innards. To suggest that knives couldn't harm such a thing is patently absurd, and the fact that it isn't necessary for that to happen currently is the precise source of the consternation in this discussion.

The problem is not wyches being able to hurt vehicles, they already can, the problem is that our army is literally designed to be rubbish before turn 4. THAT is what needs to be corrected before any meaningful discussion on improving a unit that is heavily reliant on our faction specific USR's can happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 01 2017, 22:46

Some people are for rending others are for bladestorm: conclusion we need an option to hurt things because we cannot hurt them now.
@ betray the world: While not the only, you certainly are the most vocal supporter of rending, maybe if you swithc to bladestorm a consensus is reached earlyer?


I agree with amorrowlyday here. While wyches need something else our army wide rules, power from pain and drugs are at least as problematic.

I am not experienced but watched quite a few battle reports and tactica. While most tactica say we are an alpha strike force what happens in reality depends on the type of force:
Venomspam: we kill anything that is an easy target, try to survive and capture a lot of objectives with the few nearly dead units we have over at the end. Often won or lost on who you play against, clearly not always, but except some really good players you can give predict the outcome just on army selection.
Heamoculi coven: we survive the first few turns and kick ass with grotesques, these battles are a lot more balanced in my mind. I think one of the reasons is that while they do get stronger later in the game they get the nessesary buff really soon (fearless at round 2) and thus can survive to get there.
Any melee noncoven: We try to survive a few turns, if this happens ok then we often kill most things, but often we are dead before it happens. Most things like wyches are overprised, we have few ways of surviving, besides the (easy to ignore) cover/jink. Our powerfull melee units are expensive and our average melee units are expensive for what they can do. A good drug roll can make a large difference if there are lots of hellions/reavers/wyches (rarely seen) since we can already attack a round earlier.

I come to the following conclusion: a lot of our problems come from lack of viable options so we either end up with very few different units on the field (reavers, venoms, scourges, grotesques, maybe talos/wracks)
The reavers are t4 and can jink so thougher than most options and rely just on the caltrops if they dare attack initially, only lategame will they fully engage because they can survive because of their insane speed and t4 but are still at picking on isolated/ weakened units.
Venoms and scourges and talos do not need pfp to do damage
Grotesque are initially though and have their own PfP table in coven codex

But our other melee units wyches, hecatrix, hellions expecially suffer very much from initial lack of both punch and survivability (although a good drug roll can make them much better it is not reliable).

Our vehicles are paperthin, which is a real problem when you try to transport 6+ save models, lack any protection against quite some armies (jinking and nightshields have become much worse with the amount of ignore cover) and quite some equipment within the codex has become worse (weapons are more expensive for units, less options on melee character upgrades, less special characters that boosted complete units).

Some other units are usuable in support functions (mandrakes, kabalytes, trueborn, beasts) mainly because they rely less on drugs/PfP since they either don't have it or do not rely on cc (yes I say that mandrakes and trueborn are not cc units despite the 2 attacks each).

All of these things in itself is not hopeless, but combining them all makes certain units absolete. Because they suffer from multiple drawbacks.
Wyches are a good exemple. Melee has become harder, while before their weapons and slightly better drugs helped them push them into just ok territory in some cases, they were still weak. They often saw more use as greneade sluggers, but they could function as suicide tank destroyers with full haywire or close combat unit against some foes.
Hellions were not great but worked, now they got cheaper but lost 1 attack each, the option to have grenades and their drugs are worse.

TO SUM IT ALL UP:
Power from Pain: It used to help alpha strike (do some damage and become better). Now it helps lategame. Which is why the thougher units are doing ok, but all our real glass cannons have become worse. Let me say I like it, it really helps, but right now it works for though units, not as an alpha strike booster as was originally the case.
Drugs: Not bad, but we often need a specific something and it is right now to unreliable.
Internal support: Weapon/grenade options etc has become worse (a few exceptions like scourges and cluster caltrops which now thus see more use).
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Feb 02 2017, 00:06

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Did I just read that DE have plenty of choices for AT?

Well, I guess thats technically correct. We do have a lot of AT options, only that all of them suck massive, sweaty balls.

Well HWB Scourges aren't bad at all for the higher AVs, and Caltrop Reavers do well enough against Rhinos and the like.

It's no scatterlaser spam, but not much else is in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Feb 02 2017, 01:58

@Ynneadwraith wrote:

Well HWB Scourges aren't bad at all for the higher AVs

You're right, but the problem here is that they're not good against anything else. Against primarily AV10-11 vehicles, lance weapons are clearly better to have, simply because they're effective against a far wider array of non-vehicle targets while being the equal of the HWB.

So when the meta shifts and we're forced to start using HWB instead of mass darklights plus various support elements like HWG wyches, it ended up being a much bigger deal than it sounds like at face value because our entire army becomes less capable of flexibility and more specialized.

Suddenly, no one runs wyches, so it's all Kabalites as troops.
Suddenly, without HWG support and with the introduction of new scourge and reaver rules, people start saying darklight sucks, after 8 years(?) or so of darklight widely considered to be awesome.
Suddenly, poison goes from being the #1 way of dealing with huge MCs to not being effective against them at all.

So what does that mean for us?

THEN: Army lists had access to flexible troops, that could shoot at 12", take on vehicles rather well, and be OKish in melee, tough troops with poison weapons(wracks could be troops), OR troops that can shoot at twice the distance, with rapid fire within 12". Also, pretty much any sergeant character could take a venom blade(2+) before.
NOW: Army lists only use the shooting troops, so we lose all of the vehicle-killing power, and utility of tying things up in melee. Venom blades can only be taken on scourges(not a melee unit), or wracks(not a troop, and therefore not useful in their intended role when compared to other options.)

THEN: We had plenty of S8 AP2 darklight shots in most lists, allowing us to deal with most vehicles while simultaneously having tools to use against high toughness models with good armour saves.
NOW: We have HWG scourges that die pretty easily to any real attention, and aren't a threat to anything other than vehicles. Or anexpensive melee unit that can take a heat lance to become a suicide vehicle killer that has a minimum unit size of 3(reavers). That's 60 points sunk into a suicide unit trying to kill 35 point(usually) vehicles that likely won't die to that 1 shot, so you normally need more than the 1 suicide squad. Basically, reavers are too expensive to be suicide troops.

THEN: We were the bane of monster lists. Anyone with a wraithknight, or other large MC DREADED facing the Dark Eldar.
NOW: No one is scared. Poison is more of a curse than a boon. The things poison hurts mostly could be hurt by bolters too, and the meta has shifted to where DE basically have no answer at all for the largest of monstrous creatures(GMCs).

So essentially, wyches losing access to HWG left a vacuum in our army that was insufficiently filled by things like HWG scourges or caltrop reavers due to them being more expensive and less flexible. But a variety of factors also led to the reduction of darklight in most lists. This was part of a series of chain reactions with the fact that our splinter weapons are no longer effective against things like wraithknights to massively hurt the DE power level overall.

I guess the primary thing I'm attempting to convey is that when you make a change to a unit within a given faction, it should be understood that you're not simply altering the unit itself, but a key component of the army as a whole. Any decision can cause a cascade of shifts to the army's meta, so there is more to consider when deciding whether to give wyches things like haywire grenades or rending than simply whether or not you think it's the perfect fit for their fluff(which I think it is). We should also consider whether the army itself needs help in a given area, and DE do when it comes to flexible options that can deal with vehicles in a pinch.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Feb 02 2017, 02:54

I agree with all the then/now points.

The 2 things I disagree with: reavers are to expensive to use as suicide troops (no small 3 unit models are fine and cost the same as those 5 man wych squads before) and units have become more specialized.

I think the problem is not that we have become more specialized, but that we lack punch. In most cases the option is there, it just is not good enough. So either we should become cheaper and lose the option, or the option has to become a real option and not just paperfiller.
The  reavers are ok as melee troops but just not good enough as suicide tank destroyers. We can still do it, we have the dtools, we are just not good enough at it.
We can take some haywire and melee options on scourges, but they are then over prized in melee and are still not good enough in melee.
Wyches have PG and can take a HWG and are melee troops, but they are not good enough in either melee and 1 haywire attack is not enough to kill tanks.
Mandrakes have 2 attacks, but without assault grenades (and incentive to stay in terrain) makes that they die to fast in combat.
Hellions have speed, reasonable shooting and s4 and ap5 are great but lack the # attacks to kill hordes, thus we die to them when they hit back/ shoot over-watch.
Trueborn have the option for nice guns, but also have 2 attacks but no option for 2 hand weapons anymore.

Another part that really hurt us. The current meta supports killing things easy.
Before you usually could keep 1 vehicle alive if you needed to, place it behind terrain, give it nightshields and most things could not reach it the first round.
Now a lot of armies can kill it in 1 turn easy anyway. Thus we are more dependent on multiple small units and redundancy (multiples of the same). This makes larger units less effective even if units need to be larger to fulfill their job because they die easier.
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