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 Wych Cult. What do they need.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Apr 20 2017, 17:04

Part of the reason Wychs are bad is vehicle damage and how lack of survival skimmers.

How different would Wychs be if we could get into melee turn 2-3 every game?

yeah they are S3, but with 10 models and a 4++, possible a FnP too, if that is enough to tie down something important then they did a great job.

Even Run+Charge could help more than better weapons IMO, they need more Survival and less destructive power.

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ooftaJ
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Apr 21 2017, 00:27

Bring back 1/2ed codex rule were you get free beast packs for every wych unit. bounce
Bring back blasters and shredders upgrade.
Bring back each model carrying a haywire grenade. Granted only one model in current edition can use it but sucks when that one mode in the group dies.

Remember when all my gear head friends feared the wych rush in 5th. Move up, flat out, wait it out, bail, shoot blaster or shredder, and charge.

To be viable as a single wych force. They need more anti-armor options than just raiders and reavers. Remember when Agonizers could glance armor vehicles on a six? Take that you Ironclad Dreadnaught!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Apr 21 2017, 07:35

@ooftaJ wrote:
Bring back 1/2ed codex rule were you get free beast packs for every wych unit. bounce
Bring back blasters and shredders upgrade.
Bring back each model carrying a haywire grenade.  Granted only one model in current edition can use it but sucks when that one mode in the group dies.

Remember when all my gear head friends feared the wych rush in 5th.  Move up, flat out, wait it out, bail, shoot blaster or shredder, and charge.

To be viable as a single wych force.  They need more anti-armor options than just raiders and reavers.  Remember when Agonizers could glance armor vehicles on a six?  Take that you Ironclad Dreadnaught!

But should Troops be "feared" Or should Elites/Heavy/Fast be the scary units?

IMO Troops should be efficient in numbers and great at holding objects/tying units up. Just what I think tho.

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ooftaJ
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sat Apr 22 2017, 00:28

@amishprn86 wrote:

But should Troops be "feared" Or should Elites/Heavy/Fast be the scary units?

Troops all the way. Though the classing system will most likely go away come the new rules edition.

The decline is due to the lack of division between Kabalite and Wych. First/second edition codexes treated Wych Cult as a separate army option in the codex. They had access to most of the same wargear options that made themselves viable on the battlefield. Third addition codex the division of Kabalites and Wyches disappear. Wyches were only semi functional because of the haywire grenades. Forth edition the Wych became a specialist unit in all of that is Dark Eldar.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sat Apr 22 2017, 04:46

@ooftaJ wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

But should Troops be "feared" Or should Elites/Heavy/Fast be the scary units?

Troops all the way.  Though the classing system will most likely go away come the new rules edition.

The decline is due to the lack of division between Kabalite and Wych.  First/second edition codexes treated Wych Cult as a separate army option in the codex.  They had access to most of the same wargear options that made themselves viable on the battlefield.  Third addition codex the division of Kabalites and Wyches disappear.  Wyches were only semi functional because of the haywire grenades.  Forth edition the Wych became a specialist unit in all of that is Dark Eldar.

K, but we dont know the new rules, but talking about current rules not past or future ones, should troops be feared?

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ooftaJ
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Apr 23 2017, 16:31

@amishprn86 wrote:
K, but we dont know the new rules, but talking about current rules not past or future ones, should troops be feared?

Then no, not with current rules and codex/sup. Fear the player who is crafty enough to use them.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Apr 23 2017, 17:16

@ooftaJ wrote:
 Fear the player who is crafty enough to use them.

We're still talking about wyches, right? Was this said in jest, sort of like, "Fear the janitor who is skilled enough to slap you with his mop!" ???  Shocked


Or were you talking about being crafty with them AFTER they get something to make them useful? Because as of now, wyches aren't a "finesse" unit, they're a bad unit choice.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Apr 23 2017, 23:24

I agree with @BetrayTheWorld. Crafty players can make the most out of junk units but Wyches are just mathematically inferior given the current rules, and no amount of cleverness can change that. It would be different if careful positioning, timing, and calculation were rewarded, but even a great player would in practically every situation be better off taking a different unit. I've been thinking it over and honestly I think Wyches would be fine if they were 2 points cheaper each. That way we could feel good taking them in 10-strong units fully kitted out (coming to around 130 points for 3 wych weapons and a hekatrix with agonizer - which is 10 points cheaper than an equal number of Marines with 0 upgrades). Even if they rolled for +1 Leadership on their drugs they would be worth their salt if you could get them into melee early on (especially if you could focus your shooting on killing any flamers in the unit).

On the other hand I think it would be fluffier to keep the points cost or even raise it but buff them considerably, and as this thread has demonstrated there are so many different ways one could go about it. Another idea I recently had is allowing Wyches to make a "Frenzy" on a turn they charge instead of attacking normally. This Frenzy ability would allow the Wyches to make a number of automatic hits equal to the roll the enemy needed to make an armor save up to 5. 4+ armor save = 4 auto-hits, 5+ or 6+ = 5 auto-hits, 2+ = 2 auto hits. It would make for extremely powerful charges that reward you being the charger. A second idea I had was Wyches that charge an enemy unit that is already locked in combat (Wracks anyone?) could make a "Backstab" attack and make their Attacks AP 3 or something. Also simply upping their stats would be viable solution. Would we be having this debate if Wyches were, say, WS 5, 2 A base? (plus extra close combat weapon for effectively 3 before the charge and/or drugs).

Another way to go about it would be to change their gear. I don't think anyone would object to buffing their Wyche knives to AP 5 and getting Pinning on Splinter weapons all other things being equal. The latter change would also buff Kabalites but I speculate getting free AP 5 would make wyches be better light infantry killers. Only problem is most horde infantry are also melee-oriented. Again I'm just spitballing ideas here.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Apr 24 2017, 00:51

Well after I started playing Harlequins I wanted a troop heavy lists.

I played a 6 Troup list with 6 Starweaves, 2x2 skyweavers and 2 void weavers (no elites).

It was basically Venom spam wych cult but 10x better.... well more like 1000x better (no joke)

ps: yes I do like shadowseers and my main lists adopted 3 of them and went down to 5 troups with HWG's on everything as well.

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