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 Wych Cult. What do they need.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 07:47

10 wyches will kill around 5 orcs a turn and are invulnerable to the orcs. Sure it might take 3 turns to kill 20 orcs, but there is nothing they can do about it. So it just increases the rock paper scissors aspect in 40k again. Considering we usually spam kabalites in venoms, if we will now do this with wyches. We can stop nearly any orc unit. Suddenly the orc assault which is supposed to be their main thing is their worst fear. If they do not assault they get peppered with poison shots. If they do, they cannot wound anything. And against anything with a high i we just became worse since we lost our 4+ save but probably need a price increase since we become invulnerable to large parts of some codexes.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 09:12

I like the ability but it would probably need to be only on the turn on which they assault. After that, they revert to being wounded on their Toughness like anyone else.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:09

To clarify, the opponent would use their strength value, so basic troops would be able to wound, it'd just be difficult. And that's fine because wyches are sitting behind a 6+ save (and you can shoot them).

If that sounds too wacky, maybe have it so that at the beginning of each player turn, each unit chooses between taking an offensive stance (rending) or defensive stance (initiative) for the assault phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 17:03

@quark! wrote:
To clarify, the opponent would use their strength value, so basic troops would be able to wound, it'd just be difficult. And that's fine because wyches are sitting behind a 6+ save (and you can shoot them) Can't really hurt much in defensive mode.

If that sounds too wacky, maybe have it so that at the beginning of each player turn assault phase, each unit chooses between taking an offensive stance (rending) or defensive stance (initiative) for the assault phase.

With the above highlighted change, I think this is a fantastic idea! I would, however, allow them to keep their 4++. That would make it to where they were either able to kill things, or be fantastic tarpits, but not both at the same time. Since it's something you choose on a per combat basis, it also adds tactical depth to the unit. I highly approve, and think this is the most innovative idea I've heard yet, while not bogging down the game with tons of extra dice rolls. cheers  Twisted Evil cheers bounce

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 17:54

The new book (we all seen the leaks) actually might make them more playable at least.

Im going to try some Full DE lists (but for sure in the end will play a bit of all 3)

Its not IMO the right way to fix DE but its makes DE MUCH more playable.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:07

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@quark! wrote:
To clarify, the opponent would use their strength value, so basic troops would be able to wound, it'd just be difficult. And that's fine because wyches are sitting behind a 6+ save (and you can shoot them) Can't really hurt much in defensive mode.

If that sounds too wacky, maybe have it so that at the beginning of each player turn assault phase, each unit chooses between taking an offensive stance (rending) or defensive stance (initiative) for the assault phase.

With the above highlighted change, I think this is a fantastic idea! I would, however, allow them to keep their 4++. That would make it to where they were either able to kill things, or be fantastic tarpits, but not both at the same time. Since it's something you choose on a per combat basis, it also adds tactical depth to the unit. I highly approve, and think this is the most innovative idea I've heard yet, while not bogging down the game with tons of extra dice rolls. cheers  Twisted Evil cheers bounce

This IS a great idea! The concept of different stances is nothing new to 40k, as there is that Grey Knight mono-dude, and this would satisfy both the people who want tarpits and those of us who want killier Wyches. It's not OP for the reasons Betray the World pointed out, and additionally it would be balanced because most players are going to want their assaults to end during their opponent's turn, so that would lead us to strike the defensive stance on the first go, which would mitigate the usefulness of Charge bonuses, but in the Second turn switch to offense and finish the job. Great idea quark! (!) And good editing Betray the World!

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:08

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:


With the above highlighted change, I think this is a fantastic idea! I would, however, allow them to keep their 4++. That would make it to where they were either able to kill things, or be fantastic tarpits, but not both at the same time. Since it's something you choose on a per combat basis, it also adds tactical depth to the unit. I highly approve, and think this is the most innovative idea I've heard yet, while not bogging down the game with tons of extra dice rolls. cheers  Twisted Evil cheers bounce

Thanks. I don't do a lot of homebrew rules, but this concept has been kicking around in my head for awhile. I feel like wounding on different characterisitics is relatively underutilized design space for the game. Like you said, it also avoids extra dice rolls while adding some flavor to units/weapons/etc.

Units having different modes/stances... I'm not sure we've seen that in 40k before beyond like guns having different profiles at different ranges or different ammo, but I like it as a way of adding strategic depth. There's a certain fluffiness to it as well. The off/def stances are a way of incorporating the cunning of the DE into the gameplay. A DE army is supposed to dictate the terms of the engagement in order to survive and the stances sort of achieve that.

Further, the different stances/modes could inform how the other problems with the wych cult could be addressed. Wych weapons could amplify the power of certain stances. For example, I like the idea of shard nets making H&R/fall back tests more difficult (which strengthens the unit as a tar pit). Something like "for every shard net in the combat, modify the initiative test result by 1." Razorflails could just be better at rending, strengthening the offensive stance.

Borrowing from x-wing's glitterstim card, combat drugs could be a one shot of 'you get to use both stances in this combat phase' with an associated cost, perhaps the risk of overdose (each model could effectively take a dangerous terrain check or something similar).
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 20:25

@quark! wrote:
There's a certain fluffiness to it as well. The off/def stances are a way of incorporating the cunning of the DE into the gameplay. A DE army is supposed to dictate the terms of the engagement in order to survive and the stances sort of achieve that.

Further, the different stances/modes could inform how the other problems with the wych cult could be addressed. Wych weapons could amplify the power of certain stances. For example, I like the idea of shard nets making H&R/fall back tests more difficult (which strengthens the unit as a tar pit). Something like "for every shard net in the combat, modify the initiative test result by 1." Razorflails could just be better at rending, strengthening the offensive stance.

Borrowing from x-wing's glitterstim card, combat drugs could be a one shot of 'you get to use both stances in this combat phase' with an associated cost, perhaps the risk of overdose (each model could effectively take a dangerous terrain check or something similar).

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 21:21

Let's not go crazy with it. Rule bloat is a thing, and the original suggestion is simple and elegantly effective. I also wouldn't want one of the wych weapons to be useless against 95% of all models in 40k(Penalties to enemy H&R), so if any of them did that, they'd also have to do something else.

I'd still personally be a fan of wych weapons all doing the same thing, but they COULD have an offense and defense mode, where they give one effect when in an offensive stance, and another while in a defensive stance. Like rerolls to wound in offense and -1A to enemy models(to a minimum of 1) in base contact when in defense.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:20

Thinking more about it with Incubi, Grots, wyches, Hellions, Wracks etc..., we have SO many melee units, but only a few of them actually fulfill their rolls (Grots and Incubi basically).

Im in full agreement that the over all book just needs to be fixed, Hellions should have a niche OR just be "jump" wytches (all the same stats, just a better melee weapon with Jump) Wyches being troops shouldnt be our "strong" melee unit, but a spam able useful melee unit, as useful as Warriors honestly.

Looking at it this way, I feel wyches need more Movement and a way to get their 4++ even when not in melee.

Dodge: 4++ while in combat and Instead of going to ground the unit may Dodge, if the unit dodge they cannot charge afterwords
+D3 to movement, run and charge moves

Putting them on objectives now grants a easy 4++ and the ability to move up to 18" in a turn to they can travel without a vehicle (Objective grabbers) This will make them alittle more fluffy as well.

This will still lead Wracks to being almost useless, honestly Wracks should more survivable than they are now.

Just food for thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:54

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Let's not go crazy with it.

I extended the stance from a solution for wyches to a solution for a wych cult faction. If that automatically qualifies as rules bloat, then I agree. I don't think faction bonuses are necessary, but it's a relatively simple/clear concept that addresses the consistent problems with wych cult units (no damage, no durability, poor assault focus). If we can use one rule to elegantly fix hellions, wyches, bloodbrides, and i guess buff reavers more, then that seems cleaner than fixing each unit separately.

The combat drug idea is kind of ridiculous, but it's a deeper interaction with regard to fluff and gameplay if you trigger it for one turn. It's not really any more bloated than the current one and way more useful. Though if I were to really bloat it up, I'd let you use the drugs more than once, but make each trigger more dangerous than the last.

And to be fair, the shard net rule would apply to more than H&R units. Any non fearless unit that has to fall back takes an opposed initiative check (wyches win most of them already, but it's not useless in a meta with lots of I5+ models). Sorry if that interaction wasn't clear from the previous post.

For the record, I'm also a fan of all wych weapons being the same and would even consider throwing hellion glaives under the wych weapons umbrella as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Mar 03 2017, 07:16

I feel like these would be the most balanced and least complex changes.
***1.  Webway portals allow deep strikers to assault.***
2.  Roll drugs for each squad.
3. 3 wyches get wych weapons regardless of squad size
4. Hellions get T4 and can only make jump moves... no running with the board in their hands and perhaps no run move instead of shooting.  Move shoot charge h+r
5. Dodge vs overwatch.
6.  Succubus has her own wl traits table.  RR drugs for her unit.

***alternately wyches and anything else that does drugs before battle should be able to assault out of deep strike, probably better for a wych cult detachment***


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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Mar 03 2017, 08:01

For the sake of fun and flavor over tabletop need I'd like to see DE Wyches have more variety and reflect the enemies of the Eldar, like how Rome's gladiators were based off of forces they warred with.


The Necron: This Wych carries a bladed splintercannon, is painted up in metallic runes with a skull helmet and has a drug harness to 'rise from the dead'. Highly destructive to the wych's body so a good haemonculi contract is needed.

The Ork: This Wych is painted bright green and jacked up with the strongest pain-numbing drugs available. Wields a heavy klaive-like chopping blade and is able to stun with a hypersonic roar at short range.

The Daemon: This Wych fights with a claw in hand and a long tongue-like whip in the other, both are coated with powerful mind breaking aphrodisiacs.

The Tyranid: This wych uses a pair of powered weapons, often claws or scythes.

The Space Marine: This Wych fights with a heavy helmet and half of their body heavily armored with an oversized pauldron shield, a shardcarbine (the boltgun) and chain-flail (the chainsword)

The Warlock: This Wych fights with imitation runes painted over their chest, a horned crown, and wields a two handed sword or spear, and has a grenade gauntlet (explosive, phantasmic, etc.) on the arm to imitate psychic powers.

The Slave Fodder: This which puts a bucket on their head, a sack over their body, and attempts to annoyingly shine a laser into other combatant's eyes. Usually played to lighten the mood in between more intense arena matches.


Rules wise you can have a set of weapon, or give Wyches an INquisitor acolyte array of choice for players to build their own custom wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Apr 05 2017, 15:32

Just had a thought. Based on a sort of reverse-Death Spinner idea, it would be pretty fluffy and i feel not overpowered for enemy units to conpare Initiative to wound Wyches in CC, which i feel is a better representation of their 'defence through speed and agility' than a straight-up 4+ save. Maybe with a caveat that they're always wounded on a 6 so Orks aren't even more screwed than they already are...

What do people think?

Also, if carried over to Lelith it would give her a really nice little power-boost as well with her silly-high initiative Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Apr 05 2017, 15:58

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Just had a thought. Based on a sort of reverse-Death Spinner idea, it would be pretty fluffy and i feel not overpowered for enemy units to conpare Initiative to wound Wyches in CC, which i feel is a better representation of their 'defence through speed and agility' than a straight-up 4+ save. Maybe with a caveat that they're always wounded on a 6 so Orks aren't even more screwed than they already are...

What do people think?

Also, if carried over to Lelith it would give her a really nice little power-boost as well with her silly-high initiative Smile

Erm...points up

It was already mentioned a page or so back

@quark! wrote:
I would also replace the dodge save with a mechanic where wyches are wounded against their initiative in the assault phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Apr 05 2017, 16:54

Huh, and here I was thinking I was being all novel and inventive Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Apr 06 2017, 16:31

Quote :
Further, the different stances/modes
Dunno, stances are very karate like, discipline based and of the 2 Eldar subtypes Craftworlders seems to be painted off budo practitioners. Their Path is directly taken from Japan Do.

Wyches are kinda like MMA, experience, brutality and talent unleashed with a big nod towards natural selection. The best fighter rules, not the style.

Incubi are stances based, that is easily seen in their minis. Wyches are running with wild abondon. Rage, speed and trickery.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Apr 07 2017, 03:46

Random idea a few friends had was a limited use net that prevented overwatch if the affected unit fails a toughness idea. From a fluffy perspective it seems like quite a gladiatorial move, like the retiarius with their nets
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Apr 07 2017, 22:07

@Azdrubael I hear what you say about stances and here are my thoughts given that the new edition will be trying to simplify the game, a thing I am on-board with.

My offer:

Combat drugs be simplified to be +1 Strength, Attacks, or Weapon Skill on a D3. With this set of drugs there is no downright terrible option (cough Leadership), merely 2 more situational options and a preferred option that has a 1/3 chance of being obtained (and that is before any re-rolls...). This maintains a bit of randomness without the risk of condemning the unit to be significantly less useful than normal.

Wyches and Bloodbrides both gain Rending. I know it's controversial but BetraytheWorld gave a pretty solid argument why it's reasonable, and it is in my opinion the most elegant solution.

I really hope it is not the case that grenades are still one-use per phase. I would much prefer that each model with grenades has a finite number, like 2 or 3, but you can't just pick one model to use them, rather the whole squad must use a grenade if you elect to use grenades. I know perfect realism would be that any number of squad members could use their grenades so that you could space them out throughout the game, but keeping track of that would be tedious, I just think that a limited number of grenades but the option for everybody to use them at once returns.

I see no reason why Wyches can't have more Wych weapons, so I suggest 2:5 for Wyches and 1:1 for Bloodbrides. Furthermore, I would want Wych weapons to help deal with specific targets, in a similar manner how Space Marine special weapons help an all-rounder unit deal with specific targets. My suggestions would be: Hydra Gauntles confer the Haywire rule to the wielder's melee attacks, Razorflails make each hit count as 5 hits (anti-swarm), and Shardnet and Impaler revert to their original use but also grant AP3. These changes would of course make them more expensive but I think they would be worth it.

I am also of the opinion that Power from Pain can and should be dramatically changed back to a system based around enemy units dying more similar to its original incarnation (I have my ideas but I want to keep this post reasonably long)

Question: what do you think of base Strength 4 being more commonplace among the dedicated melee units in Dark Eldar. Ever since the Corsair prince came out with base Strength 4 I've wondered if other Eldar units are deserving. Surely a Klaivex or Succubus are potential candidates, no?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Apr 10 2017, 16:34

Imo, the biggest benefit that the wyches need is a more effective way of getting into melee. Once they are in melee, I do think they can hold up well enough, even despite S3. Especially given the abundance of poison weapons. Even getting them into combat helps them become more survivable, which makes them more viable as a tarpit unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Apr 10 2017, 19:51

@Srota wrote:
Imo, the biggest benefit that the wyches need is a more effective way of getting into melee.  Once they are in melee, I do think they can hold up well enough, even despite S3.  Especially given the abundance of poison weapons.  Even getting them into combat helps them become more survivable, which makes them more viable as a tarpit unit.

They don't, though. They still often lose combats because they don't have a way to kill things. So when they take 5 wounds and fail 2.5 of them, and they don't manage to kill a single opponent, they lose the close combat and have to roll morale. Then they lose and run away, potentially getting caught in a sweeping advance.

That's the problem. In order to be a tarpit, they need a way to NOT run away(ie, fearless). Short of that, in order to give them a chance to win combats, they need a way to potentially kill things(ie, rending).

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Apr 10 2017, 20:49

Fair enough, I could see where that would be an important issue that needs correcting.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Apr 11 2017, 13:20

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@Azdrubael I hear what you say about stances and here are my thoughts given that the new edition will be trying to simplify the game, a thing I am on-board with.

My offer:

Combat drugs be simplified to be +1 Strength, Attacks, or Weapon Skill on a D3.  With this set of drugs there is no downright terrible option (cough Leadership), merely 2 more situational options and a preferred option that has a 1/3 chance of being obtained (and that is before any re-rolls...).  This maintains a bit of randomness without the risk of condemning the unit to be significantly less useful than normal.  

Wyches and Bloodbrides both gain Rending.  I know it's controversial but BetraytheWorld gave a pretty solid argument why it's reasonable, and it is in my opinion the most elegant solution.

I really hope it is not the case that grenades are still one-use per phase.  I would much prefer that each model with grenades has a finite number, like 2 or 3, but you can't just pick one model to use them, rather the whole squad must use a grenade if you elect to use grenades.  I know perfect realism would be that any number of squad members could use their grenades so that you could space them out throughout the game, but keeping track of that would be tedious, I just think that a limited number of grenades but the option for everybody to use them at once returns.

I see no reason why Wyches can't have more Wych weapons, so I suggest 2:5 for Wyches and 1:1 for Bloodbrides.  Furthermore, I would want Wych weapons to help deal with specific targets, in a similar manner how Space Marine special weapons help an all-rounder unit deal with specific targets.  My suggestions would be:  Hydra Gauntles confer the Haywire rule to the wielder's melee attacks, Razorflails make each hit count as 5 hits (anti-swarm), and Shardnet and Impaler revert to their original use but also grant AP3.  These changes would of course make them more expensive but I think they would be worth it.

I am also of the opinion that Power from Pain can and should be dramatically changed back to a system based around enemy units dying more similar to its original incarnation (I have my ideas but I want to keep this post reasonably long)

Question:  what do you think of base Strength 4 being more commonplace among the dedicated melee units in Dark Eldar.  Ever since the Corsair prince came out with base Strength 4 I've wondered if other Eldar units are deserving.  Surely a Klaivex or Succubus are potential candidates, no?

...I really like this. All weapon options have uses. Combat drugs are all useful and less of a lottery (although I'd absolutely love it if +1WS was replaced with +1T).

I'm not certain about S4 for Deldar combat units. Grots fit with S5. Incubi are good at S4 with their Klaives. I'd rather see the rest at S3 with various clever technologies and abilities to make up the difference. Seems fluffier.

A S4 Archon would be pretty neat though.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Apr 20 2017, 04:32

I think that rather than "Wyches and Bloodbrides gain rending."  Wyches, Bloodbrides, Succubus and Reavers should replace their Close Combat Weapon with a Wych Blade (or similar).  This weapon would then have Rending.  (And maybe AP5, but we'll leave that out for now.)
This would mean that Wyches would lose Rending when they changed out for another weapon.  Meaning that we don't have Rending Agonisers or Hydra Gauntlets.  
Personally, I think Razorflails should keep rending, but also do something in regards to Hit-Rolls or to Wound rolls.  Maybe go back to 5th ed where it did both?
Hydra Gauntlets could do what they used to do; grant D3 extra Attacks.  But have something else to make up for loss of Rending.
Haywire was mentioned earlier for these.
The Shardnet used to have a very useful rule in which models base to base with someone carrying one could not use their close combat weapons, if this saw a return, I would be very enthused.
The Impaler might benefit from Instant Death on, say a 5+ to Wound?


The stances mentioned by quark are a great idea, and I agree with BetrayTheWorld that they are innovative and have an effect without adding dice rolls.
If the changes I mention above are accepted as not-broken/ not-ridiculous, however, I would say that the stances should be a touch more symmetrical.
Defensive stance: Enemy models roll to wound against a Wyches Initiative rather than their Toughness.
Offensive stance: Wyches roll to wound against enemy models using their Initiative rather than their Strength.  Instant Death and damage against Vehicles still calculated from Strength, though. (Sorry, no Instant-Deathing other Eldar or bashing Land Raiders to death with the butt of your pistol).

Question Maybe the stances could also extend into non-combat?  "Shooting having to wound against initiative./ Moving running and charging an extra 3 inches." Question   Decided at the start of the movement phase and then re-decided at the Assault phase Question (this is speculation, not suggestion).

I also think that the stances should only be available for Hekatrii and higher.  Meaning a Wych squad with no characters doesn't get the rule, but if they have a Hekatrix in there, they do.  (Also if a Succubuss or Lelith happens to join up with them), but squads of Bloodbrides would have it without needing a Syren.
Kind of like an Exarch ability.  Maybe Arena Champions could have it as well?  But I wouldn't give it to Helliarchs.

This would, to my mind, make the 10 point tax we pay to bring a character go somewhere useful and actually give me a reason to spend those points other than what we have now:
"Upgrading a Wych to a Hekatrix gives you the ability to spend more points to make one member the entire squad actually viable (Agoniser)." -Some wacko at GeeDubs.

These changes would do a few things;
Wych Blades
Succubus, Wyches, Bloodbrides and Reavers would all gain Rending as base.
Succubus, Wyches and Bloodbrides would lose Rending if they swapped out for other weapons, meaning that Cult Weapons would have to offer something of situationally greater value than Rending in order for us to be willing to pay for them.
Potentially glancing AV13 with Furious Charge: 5.556% chance per succesful hit.


Stances 2.0
Upgrading a Wych to a Hekatrix / Reaver to a Champion would have a purpose, but letting the Hekatrix/ Champion die becomes a risk.
Bloodbrides would be differentiated from Wyches in that they don't have to worry about losing stances when their Syren dies.  Also, they don't have to bring a Syren to get stances.
Succubi and Lelith would be buffed by proxy.
Wyches would be able to both tarpit and kill stuff.
Succubi and Lelith joining Hekatrii-less Wych squads would give bonuses both ways (meatshield = stances).

Thoughts/ Flaws?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Thu Apr 20 2017, 15:26

@Ikol wrote:
I think that rather than "Wyches and Bloodbrides gain rending."  Wyches, Bloodbrides, Succubus and Reavers should replace their Close Combat Weapon with a Wych Blade (or similar).  This weapon would then have Rending.  (And maybe AP5, but we'll leave that out for now.)
This would mean that Wyches would lose Rending when they changed out for another weapon. Meaning that we don't have Rending Agonisers or Hydra Gauntlets.

Thoughts/ Flaws?

The problem with this idea is that it would devalue all of the additional weapons, which are already overpriced. Who is going to pay 25 points for an agonizer only to lose rending when they could instead just buy 2.5 more wyches WITH rending for that same price?

No, I don't think there should be any intrinsic penalty for paying for a weapon "upgrade". Things like hydra gauntlets would actually end up being a weapon downgrade against most opponents. And with current pricing, you could just get that same roughly d3 attacks WITH rending by simply buying another wych for the same price as the gauntlets.

This idea would eventually just lead to no one ever buying upgrades for wyches, once people figured all this out.

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