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 Wych Cult. What do they need.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 23:10

amorrowlyday wrote:

That isn't to say however that all our problems would be solved, no you're definitely correct there, but when the only thing we have trouble taking down is the Wraithknight I think we've become okay.

Again, we're not disagreeing(except about disagreeing). I agree with pretty much everything you said. What I was saying before was in response to the fact that they implied we were attempting to make wyches, and wyches alone, able to do everything, thus displacing all the other models in the codex.

I agree that fixing wyches shores up and makes viable plenty of other units in the codex, and that there is a relationship between the entire codex that shifts any time you make meaningful change to the units within it. That's part of the point of fixing wyches, and basically exactly what I said in response to you last time. But it was previously(by someone else) implied that the WAY we were talking about fixing wyches was as if we were trying to make wyches be the be-all end-all of models in the book, when the person who made that comment obviously didn't think they should be.

My entire point was that what we were suggesting for wyches wasn't going to cause the rest of our models to be useless, which is what I felt was being implied earlier by someone else.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 01:17

Wyches = Glass cannon Melee
Warrior = Stable shooting
Incubi = MEQ killer
Grots = Tanks
Etc...

The DE codex doesnt need 1 unit to do them all, we just need to do our roles better.

And Why isnt a Shardcarbine a weapon option for Warriors/Trueborns? Or HWC, HL's etc.. Why cant Scourges at least take Shardcarbine?

We are stripped of meaningful special weapons for each unit to customised them to fit theri rolls better.

Lack of Good melee options on melee, guns on shooting units and this makes the armor builds just redundantly spamtastic of the same few units.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 01:19

Scourges do take shardcarbines. They're just inefficient
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 02:09

And it just seems blatantly unfair to me that every other Eldar jetbike across the codices can take special weapons on a 1:1 ratio except our Reavers... but that's a topic for another thread.

The more I think of it the more I like the idea of Rending Wyches, and I really don't think we'd see them punching tanks much more than we see marines if that much at all.  

One idea I've toyed with from time to time is eliminating as much randomness as possible from our own wargear and abilities.  This fits with Dark Eldar always planning every detail ahead of time and it would differentiate us from our Craftworld kin who have no problem with the randomness associated with Psychic powers.  As this might apply to Wyches one could ensure that either you always chose your Combat Drugs each game (which would give us an edge over Corsair drugs which I think is only fair since where do you think they're getting their drugs?), or have Combat Drugs do the same thing every game (simplicity > flavor Question ), also eliminating randomness from Wych weapons etc.

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 02:49

Tounguekutter wrote:
And it just seems blatantly unfair to me that every other Eldar jetbike across the codices can take special weapons on a 1:1 ratio except our Reavers... but that's a topic for another thread.

The more I think of it the more I like the idea of Rending Wyches, and I really don't think we'd see them punching tanks much more than we see marines if that much at all.

One idea I've toyed with from time to time is eliminating as much randomness as possible from our own wargear and abilities.  This fits with Dark Eldar always planning every detail ahead of time and it would differentiate us from our Craftworld kin who have no problem with the randomness associated with Psychic powers.  As this might apply to Wyches one could ensure that either you always chose your Combat Drugs each game (which would give us an edge over Corsair drugs which I think is only fair since where do you think they're getting their drugs?), or have Combat Drugs do the same thing every game (simplicity > flavor Question ), also eliminating randomness from Wych weapons etc.

Thoughts?

Regarding Scatter-Bikes: Well, on the other side, by the looks of it GW doesn't seem to cut down on their questionable rulings. So, I could imagine getting quite ridiculous rules as well once we get our new Codex too.


And: I am not against randomness if all possible results are about equally strong. However, I did come to question the nature of Combat Drugs. It's an old rule that I suppose was intended to provide something nice and helpful to our poor T3/S4/A1 Wyches. And looking at 5th ed codex, not all drugs were as terrible as they are now.

Still, I am not quite sure about the way they work. Why can't Wyches decide what they are bringing with them? I thought about a system where you can choose to activate Combat Drugs once a turn to gain one effect of your liking (like +1S, +1T, Precision Strikes, Fearless etc.). However, for every model you need to roll a D6 and for each roll of 6 your unit suffers a wound with no saves allowed.

I could imagine this working well with lower priced Wyches, providing a substantial short term advantage at the cost of losing bodies. A nice risk-reward mechanic. Only thing I am afraid of would be that this adds too many dice rolls.
Imagine 10 Wyches rolling their D6 and possible subsequent FnP rolls, it adds up.

Just thought I'd throw that in.


amishprn86 wrote:
Wyches = Glass cannon Melee
Warrior = Stable shooting
Incubi = MEQ killer
Grots = Tanks
Etc...

The DE codex doesnt need 1 unit to do them all, we just need to do our roles better.

That is very true
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 03:10

You could just make it a single d6 every time the unit uses drugs, and lose a model with no saves of any kind whenever you roll a 6. It would limit the downside to 1 model per time the unit uses it, and give us a legitimate mathematical reason to field larger than minimum squads, since losing 1 model is less impactful on a size 10 squad than on a size 5 squad.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 04:32

I agree that even if Wyches were good I'd be attracted to going 10 in a Raider because unless we really beef them up 5 Wyches are not going to do much against 10 Man Tac squads.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 05:34

Tounguekutter wrote:
I agree that even if Wyches were good I'd be attracted to going 10 in a Raider because unless we really beef them up 5 Wyches are not going to do much against 10 Man Tac squads.

People run 10 man tac squads? Haven't seen this in ages. Almost always combat squaded.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 09:22

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Tounguekutter wrote:
I agree that even if Wyches were good I'd be attracted to going 10 in a Raider because unless we really beef them up 5 Wyches are not going to do much against 10 Man Tac squads.

People run 10 man tac squads? Haven't seen this in ages. Almost always combat squaded.

All SM players at my local just take 5mans with free transports and load them up with plasma so they can JSJ in an dout of vehicles.

And spam Bikes with Grav and a guy they call smash fu@#er

Well other than the BA player that only plays Gold guys fallowing from the sky hehe

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 16:09

How do they get JSJ?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 17:40

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Tounguekutter wrote:
I agree that even if Wyches were good I'd be attracted to going 10 in a Raider because unless we really beef them up 5 Wyches are not going to do much against 10 Man Tac squads.

People run 10 man tac squads? Haven't seen this in ages. Almost always combat squaded.

I seldom find a reason for not combat squadding but occasionally it comes up. It's often useful in Purge the Alien type missions.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 17:44

I've been giving a lot of thought to whether or not the restriction that says you can't "embark and disembark" in the same turn is or is not a restriction on the inverse provided we're discussing multiple vehicles. Maybe that's what they are doing, but it certainly isn't truly jsj and I can't think of anything that lets space marines shoot in the movement phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Tue Feb 07 2017, 23:13

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
How do they get JSJ?

They play WS and they get a D6 movement right after shooting and they can move back into the rhinos.

Sense you must be within 2" of the vehicle to embark, they just move 3" out so they will always make the roll to get back in.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 00:56

I might be mistaken, but I think embarking is something you're only given permission to do in the movement phase. Also, assuming you meant white scars...white scars don't get to move after shooting that I'm aware of. I just looked up their chapter tactics to doublecheck. They have hit & run, and +1S to their hammer of wrath on bikes, but no running after shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 01:39

Stormlance Battle company, the white Scars detachment from Kauyon provides the "USR" mobile firebase. I've just found out that this is what mobile firebase lets you do.

Space marine formation from Kauyon that provides the mobile firebase Usr. It does these things. only can get back into their dedicated transport tho
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 02:30

Oh, ok. I've never seen anyone run that.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 10:07

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Oh, ok. I've never seen anyone run that.

They dont have to get back into the vehicle, but I believe its only a D6 movement.

With Plasma and 5 of these units, having razorbacks with LasPlas its a heck of alot of S7+ AP fire power 1st 2 turns, then when things are hurt moving the SM's closer having rapid fire ap2 is really strong as well.

Most players dont shoot at the rhinos/razorbacks b.c the Grav Bikes that scouted closer and making a lot of threat on you.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 16:15

So that formation gives them free transports as well as that ability?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 16:40

LOL FREE. Nah you don't see anyone run it is because you have to pay for everything!

Only benefits are that ability and a second one that allows reroll failed to hits if the target is on an objective. I guess the fact that all the special characters who are captain+ can be taken in the formation instead of the captain is a plus?
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Wed Feb 08 2017, 17:33

amorrowlyday wrote:
LOL FREE. Nah you don't see anyone run it is because you have to pay for everything!

Only benefits are that ability and a second one that allows reroll failed to hits if the target is on an objective. I guess the fact that all the special characters who are captain+ can be taken in the formation instead of the captain is a plus?

Playing against the Free transports and the Move shoot move + Rerolls while on objectives. I would MUCH RATHER fight against free transports.

Rerolls on Plasma, grav, las and able to shoot and move + get back in is much stronger than 1-2 extra units or some extra guns over the coarse of the game.

When you opponent is getting 10-20 rerolls they never would have gotten in an objective based game per turn, it makes holding objectives in ITC format MUCH harder sense you need them at the start of your turn and not the end.

It makes me not want to pick hold objectives and pick kill units if I can.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:25

If I were to change the wych cult, I would do two basic things.

First, give them rending in close combat and tier the rending such that better wyches rend more effectively. A basic wych would rend on a six, blood brides five, succubus four, etc. It's consistent with the fluff of finding weaknesses as mentioned above and it is consistent with how lelith ignores armor saves with her attacks. You could even have a wych cult detachment that improves the rending army wide ability much like grim resolve gets better in the lion's blade detachment.

I would also replace the dodge save with a mechanic where wyches are wounded against their initiative in the assault phase.

Combat drugs and wych weapons have been covered pretty well. Drugs need to be more consistent and the weapons should do something funky and flavorful.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 06:29

@quark!  I like your suggestion about Rending, but wounding against initiative would be equating strength to ability to Hit.   Maybe it would make more sense if attacking enemies count their strength as their initiative in addition to wounding Wyches on their initiative?   With that change that would be a very, very powerful (and also situational) rule however.  Most Necron units wouldn't be able to Wound Succubi or Archons at all.  Still, the basic concept of changing how models wound Wyches instead of offering Wyches a flat save is interesting, since it opens up the possibility that Wyches could be better at dodging some enemies but not others, instead of being equally likely to dodge a necron as they would a greater Daemon of Slaanesh.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 06:35

Wounding against initiative in this manner could signify those super human reflexes we hear so much about. Fluff wise sure you made contact with them but they move so well that no meaningful strike could occur.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 07:02

While I like the idea, the playability is not really there.
Sure against most it might be ok.
But against an orc army, there would be no battle, wyches would wipe the floor with them, and the orcs who are also build for combat do not stand a chance...
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Fri Feb 10 2017, 07:07

Nah because we still can't put out enough wounds to do it in 1 turn. That makes our immaculate victory fluffy.
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