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 Wych Cult. What do they need.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 06:31

TeenageAngst wrote:
Give the wyches wych weapons automatically for free, they already cost more than warriors, make them worth it.

The 4+ invul save counts for overwatch.

Give wyches Smash.

You can buy combat drugs for a unit instead of rolling on the table, and buy more than one.

Im not even gonna try and explain why thats an awful idea.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 06:33

TeenageAngst wrote:
Give the wyches wych weapons automatically for free, they already cost more than warriors, make them worth it.

The 4+ invul save counts for overwatch.

Give wyches Smash.

You can buy combat drugs for a unit instead of rolling on the table, and buy more than one.

You do realize that the smash rule grants ALL their attacks AP2, right?

I wouldn't be upset if GW made some form of your suggested changes, giving 1 or 2 wych weapons to a squad for free and giving wyches an alternative version of smash where they only had AP2 when they made a smash attack, though even those changes might make them a bit OP. But I think giving them the smash USR that includes AP2 on all their attacks would be way too much.

Honestly, the more I think about all these, the more I circle back around to rending being the answer. Makes them good and useful without being OP, though, I DO support being able to buy specific combat drugs, or at least making a table that is always useful, like only 3 drugs:

+1A & +3" charge range.
+1S & +1I
+1T & +1FnP

With these types of drugs, I'd expect to either pay for them, or have increased base cost on rending wyches with them. I think rending wyches with a roll on the above drugs would be easily worth 12 points/model.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 08:56

So I have this thought:  You can slap specialist weapons on a marine unit to help them deal with threats that although may crop up are not what the unit is intended to face, cementing their utility as mainline troops.  Why not do the same thing to Wych weapons?  Up the points cost to the weapons so that while your drugs set the unit up to take on X-kind of enemy, should you run into Y-enemy your Wych weapon can shine and you can pose a credible threat.  This would be in conjunction with combat drugs as choose and pay squad upgrades.

Example:  You know you're facing marines so you take your anti-elite combat drug and your anti-vehicle wych weapon.  Just like Marines are primarily anti-infantry but can take a Multi-melta to be able to poke vehicles should the need arise.

Here are my proposed Wych weapons and combat drugs:
All Wych weapons are AP5

Razorflail (10 pts):  Allows Wych to attack with double her full complement of attacks at Initiative 10 step on the turn she charges in addition to attacking normally (usually this will just mean she makes triple the attacks on the turn she charges).  Anti-horde

Hydra-gauntlets (35 pts):  Each normal hit deals D3 Haywire hits.

Shardnet+Impaler (5 pts):  Pick a single model in base to base with wielder.  Subtract 1 from WS and A to minimum 1.  Anti-monstrous creature.  Low points cost because it is the least useful of the 3.

Adrenalight:  +1 Attack and Rage USR
Grave Lotus:  Shred USR in melee
Splintermind:  +1 to Power from Pain and Leadership

I briefly did some mathhammer for the drugs and with or without Rend Adrenalight would be better anti guard and Lotus would be better anti MEQ.  Leaves me wondering fi Splintermind would be OP or unworthy given other 2.  Not as easy to mathhamer that one.

I could also see a problem combining Grave Lotus with Razorflails or Adrenalight with Hydra gauntlet for OP-ness.

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Last edited by Tounguekutter on Sun Feb 05 2017, 11:53; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 09:08

Tounguekutter wrote:

Example:  You know you're facing marines so...

I play tournaments, so I am vehemently against any changes that require you to know what you're going to be facing in order to be useful. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to paying for generic "combat drugs" for the squad, and getting to choose which ones you take at the same time as warlord traits or deployment or whatever, so that you could always know what your opponent is playing before selecting a specific drug.

Also, marines are inherently far more flexible already, having significantly higher surviveability, 24" rapid fire guns, and the ability to hurt AV10 with their base strength, so all of the modifiers marines get improve upon that already better starting platform.

I'm not entirely opposed to wych weapons providing extra utility to wyches, but wyches themselves should be improved at being melee combatants as well, without requiring extra purchases or anything.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 09:32

For the reasons you mentioned, that's why I would also be in favor of giving Wyches Rend.  The way I intended the drugs to be, you pick them before deployment, by then you would know what you're facing, at least in the most general sense right?  Regardless,  I forgot to mention that, sorry.

Never been in a tournament so not sure how those work, tbh.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 09:49

Ah so like ctan powers or psychic. That is within the rules
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 10:53

Tounguekutter wrote:
For the reasons you mentioned, that's why I would also be in favor of giving Wyches Rend.  The way I intended the drugs to be, you pick them before deployment, by then you would know what you're facing, at least in the most general sense right?  Regardless,  I forgot to mention that, sorry.

I wouldn't be opposed to the basic premise of your overall idea, though the numbers and pricing would probably require tweaking, I think.

I don't know that I fully understand what you mean the razorflail to do. Can you give an example of a wych using it, when they would attack, and how many attacks they'd get?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 11:42

With regards to pricing and what they actually do, I was more throwing out ideas as examples rather than proposing anything specific, although looking at Hydra Gauntlets again I'm definitely upping their points cost from 25 to 35 Laughing

As for what I would have the Razorflail do, I meant to include that it only gives any bonus (outside of the flat AP5) on the turn a model with it charges but here is an example of how it would work (and I am open to tweaking suggestions):

Wych armed with Razorflails (without taking a Combat Drug that gives her bonus attacks) charges and makes 6 attacks at initiative 10 step and then 3 again at initiative 6.  In most cases this will simply mean she makes triple her normal number of attacks, as she'll have higher initiative anyway, but the initiative 10 thing is there to represent her whipping out her flails and striking before her peers are able to get into arms reach.

If you really wanted to specialize the squad for attacking horde, you could combo this with Adrenalight for a potential of 15 attacks total on the charge (per Wych armed with Razorflails).  This might sound ridiculous, but consider it is still a 20 point Toughness 3 model with a 6+ save (although it is hidden in a squad).

As of now I don't view this as overpowered, but I'm open to arguments otherwise.  Also consider that as I have written my fandex, Wyches get the option to take 2 Wych weapons per 5 models, and Bloodbrides can take a Wych weapon on every model. This allows Wyches to be generalists by taking a couple of weapons to pose a threat to a variety of targets, whereas with Bloodbrides you can put the same weapon on all of them to really specialize.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 12:39

I don't view the razorflail price and effect as overpowered, because you're getting only 50% more offensive power than an additional wych without the benefit of the additional body. I couldn't say with adrenalight, without first discussing costing on drugs.

As for the hydra gauntlets, I was actually thinking they were already overpriced. Personally, I'd just make them a 10 point AP5 specialist weapon with the haywire rule that comes as a pair, rather than making it D3 per hit. That gives a wych up to 3 attacks against a vehicle, while averaging about 2 glances. This is not as effective as our previous HWG on each model with each model getting to attack once, but priced the same. So I think it's a good middle ground between our old ability to deal with vehicles and the new situation with giving them more of a combat/melee focus without completely making them defenseless against AV.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 13:40

With regards to the Razorflail: I see your point and agree. Smile

With regards to Hydra gauntlets: part of me wants Wyches to be able to take something a little beefier against vehicles if they want to, and by comparison, Kabalites may take Blasters, Lances, and Blast Pistols should they want tools to deal with vehicles. I'm not sure if the original points cost of 25 was too overpriced either because although the average will be 4 haywire hits there is potential for up to 9 and that is fairly threatening for the same price as a multi-melta.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 17:42

Harlequins do what I'd expect wyches to do, and their weapons also work great as count-as

Razorflails = Harlequin's caress, 6 to hit is auto wound ap2 as you flail about
Shardnet & Impaler = Harlequin's embrace, d3 S6 HoW as you cast your net
Hydra gauntlets = Harlequin's kiss, more of a stretch compared to the rest but I can imagine Hydra Gauntlets being used to super submission-grapple-kill a guy so you get 1 s6 ap2 attack with a chance to ID as the wych does a literal guillotine choke.

But for wyches to really stand out compared to harlequins, death cult, banshees, and other 'fast light killy assault' units they need to bring back the old "tarpit of terminators" rules set.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 19:45

I'm in the camp that Wyches should be more killy than tar pitty and surely there is a way to manage that and still have Wyches bring something to the table that makes them unique, right?  What is one aspect of the 'fast light killy assault' trope that is yet unexplored?

I suppose that is true of Wyches already in that (as far as I know) there are no other F.L.K.A. units that get stronger by the end of the turn.

The more I think about our current Power from Pain rule the more I feel it needs a complete re-write. Our army should be all about that alpha strike but the Power from Pain special rule means we're almost never at our best. I almost wish it went in reverse and you started out with all the benefits and lost them as the game wore on. In the interest of keeping on track though, I'll go start a new thread...

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 22:45

@ tounghuekutter I like the idea of the function of your special weapons, while details might be discussed.
Razorflail bonus attacks (would be more in favor of simpel rules x bonus attacks on the charge/6 to hit is extra attack)
Hydrogauntlets something anti tank/walker (like the idea of just making them haywire)
Impaler and net something against elites/defensive (-1 attack sounds ok to me)

But the wyches need a small other boost as well.
Picking drugs sounds as a good option to give more people what they want (I would be all in favour of just making the drugs good and giving them the choice)
I would vote to keep them around 10ish points for this drug table
+shred +1A
+rending & +1I
+feel no pain 6+ & +1T
+Battle focus + 1S


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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Sun Feb 05 2017, 23:08

I just want 2 Base things and better upgrades

Rending, 5++ always and 4++ in overwatch and Melee.
Upgrade Weapons: (5-10pts each) : Armorbane, FleshBane, ID, and .... Ignore Invul

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 00:08

amishprn86 wrote:
Upgrade Weapons: (5-10pts each) : Armorbane, FleshBane, ID, and .... Ignore Invul

That last request makes me question how serious you are. If you are serious, please understand I mean no offense, but this rant has been a long time coming...

Ever since that Necron weapon that could ignore Invulnerable saves was introduced I've thought that things had gone too far. It's an invulnerable save after all! Why even call it an invulnerable save if there are weapons that ignore it? Now, it would be interesting if instead of "Invulnerable" they were called "Energy saves" or something like that since most of them are energy-based, and they were toted as like an alternative or even a back-up save, but right now that's not what they're called or what they're intended. But a lot of them are dodge-based like our beloved Wyches. How would a melee weapon be able to essentially auto-hit (fluff-wise)? I don't even know how that would work other than some sort of explosion that the user also gets caught up in, or something like that. Weapons that ignore Invulnerable saves represent in my opinion everything that's wrong with Power Creep. But no, after the Tau 10/1 Railgun GW just had to keep going and whip up Strength D.

End Rant.

Otherwise I suppose Armorbane, Fleshbane, and ID could work, although you might want to consider Betray the World's argument as to why GW will never give us Fleshbane (a.k.a. GMC have to be the big baddies so that they keep selling). As for Armorbane, a Wych still only averages a glance on an armor 10 vehicle (but I don't know how Rending would play out with Armorbane). Finally with ID I think most of the multi-wound models we encounter are GMC these days, and again, for that reason, we'll never get it. For my money, ID may not be too useful anyhow because it only helps you if you can get an unsaved wound, again good for combo with Rending. I'm probably way too tired to be writing anything coherent though drunken Sleep

Hope yall have the perfect formula for Wyches figured out when I next check in.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 00:14

Tounguekutter wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:
Upgrade Weapons: (5-10pts each) : Armorbane, FleshBane, ID, and .... Ignore Invul

That last request makes me question how serious you are.  If you are serious, please understand I mean no offense, but this rant has been a long time coming...

Ever since that Necron weapon that could ignore Invulnerable saves was introduced I've thought that things had gone too far.  It's an invulnerable save after all!  Why even call it an invulnerable save if there are weapons that ignore it?  Now, it would be interesting if instead of "Invulnerable" they were called "Energy saves" or something like that since most of them are energy-based, and they were toted as like an alternative or even a back-up save, but right now that's not what they're called or what they're intended.  But a lot of them are dodge-based like our beloved Wyches.  How would a melee weapon be able to essentially auto-hit (fluff-wise)?  I don't even know how that would work other than some sort of explosion that the user also gets caught up in, or something like that.  Weapons that ignore Invulnerable saves represent in my opinion everything that's wrong with Power Creep.  But no, after the Tau 10/1 Railgun GW just had to keep going and whip up Strength D.

End Rant.

You're going to love the Gaze of Ynnead psychic power if the 'leaked' new rules turn out to be genuine. S10, AP1, Ignores Cover, Inescapable (ignores Invulnerable saves) Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 00:30

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

This is quite possibly the worst excuse for a bad unit idea I've ever heard. You sure you don't work for GW? Wink

Ok, let´s agree there are a s***load of variables that should be calculated, but that mathhammer is going to get me sick Wink

Maybe we just should´nt compare them with SM, because GW loves them over the top Razz
Maybe Wyches are just a lazy old unit that no one cares about anymore.
or
Maybe GW did and put them into a Detachments like a meatshield that their new shiny Eldar Models are pumped if the lazy Wyches are dying Razz

That´s the love we are getting cheers

But ok, if you still want to get them usefull again, i think we need to start from the bottom and be realistic about it. Some ideas are just ridiculous crazy for their points and role XD

And at the bottom there is just one question
"why would you field them in regard of the full context of the other units and formations?"

Even if they are better, i don´t even know why i should take the points for them after all.
If someone could explain that for me, please Smile

And the most important thing for me in this discussion is -> just forget the fluff  affraid  lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 01:06

I agree we should look at the thing as a whole again.

I think the whole argument comes down like this:
Wyches need to be better so they can do something in melee.

As an army we lack certain aspects (we have few good answers to mechanized forces and big stuff).

Rending normal and fleshbane and haywire special weapons would solve some of our problems and make us more viable again. But this would mainly just shift our kabalites to wyches, we will still be nearly forced to end up with skimmerspam filled with wyches or they will never reach the enemy.

We need to look at the whole codex. I think initially the idea was to make wyches better in general combat. But we are slowly edging into trying to make wyches good at a lot of specific things, because we have a few holes in our codex and want wyches to plug all those gabs.

One more question, I sometimes hear we need better defenses, but do people feel like we need more mobility with our foot troops?
I have think we are not very good unless skimmer mounted. I would like our troops to also be possible to field without transports, but nearly all the suggestions here are just related to combat (which I agree our wyches need a boost in).
Does that mean I need better tactics to make foot sloggers viable?
Am I missing a piece of the puzzel and is getting shot to pieces not a problem, do people not mind if foot sloggers are less viable, do people only field skimmerspam so would rather not have better footsloggers since it might increase their price?
For what I notice is that people use skimmers so they arrive later in the game (deep strike) close to the objective (deep strike or high speed first move) with power from pain (deep strike or vehicles protects them from some shooting). Thus having 3 huge advantages over foot troops which is why we seldom see them at all and people have gotten used to mounting everything and are fine with it?
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 03:13

Tounguekutter wrote:
amishprn86 wrote:
Upgrade Weapons: (5-10pts each) : Armorbane, FleshBane, ID, and .... Ignore Invul

That last request makes me question how serious you are.  If you are serious, please understand I mean no offense, but this rant has been a long time coming...

Ever since that Necron weapon that could ignore Invulnerable saves was introduced I've thought that things had gone too far.  It's an invulnerable save after all!  Why even call it an invulnerable save if there are weapons that ignore it?  Now, it would be interesting if instead of "Invulnerable" they were called "Energy saves" or something like that since most of them are energy-based, and they were toted as like an alternative or even a back-up save, but right now that's not what they're called or what they're intended.  But a lot of them are dodge-based like our beloved Wyches.  How would a melee weapon be able to essentially auto-hit (fluff-wise)?  I don't even know how that would work other than some sort of explosion that the user also gets caught up in, or something like that.  Weapons that ignore Invulnerable saves represent in my opinion everything that's wrong with Power Creep.  But no, after the Tau 10/1 Railgun GW just had to keep going and whip up Strength D.

End Rant.

Otherwise I suppose Armorbane, Fleshbane, and ID could work, although you might want to consider Betray the World's argument as to why GW will never give us Fleshbane (a.k.a. GMC have to be the big baddies so that they keep selling).  As for Armorbane, a Wych still only averages a glance on an armor 10 vehicle (but I don't know how Rending would play out with Armorbane).  Finally with ID I think most of the multi-wound models we encounter are GMC these days, and again, for that reason, we'll never get it.  For my money, ID may not be too useful anyhow because it only helps you if you can get an unsaved wound, again good for combo with Rending.  I'm probably way too tired to be writing anything coherent though drunken Sleep

Hope yall have the perfect formula for Wyches figured out when I next check in.

Have you played Harlequins? I mean they have some of the better melee gear in game for a basic troop that they all can get, have 5++ at all times, they dont need a Random chart for Furious charge, they also have Hit and Run (one of the better rules in game), literally can hurt everything in game, ignore terrain basically and always counts as Assault Grenades with fear and a better pistol, oh they are 2 attack base as well.

Point for Point with the upgrades im suggesting, I'd still argue Harlequins Troupes are still better. Given they also have a better transport (S6 with 5++ that can 4++ instead of Jinking, 6+ models can ride and the vehicle has fear).

You can say what you want, even with 2 10pt weapons that can do some damage and the other 3 (in a 5man) that can rend, they still are S3 1 attack base.

Wyches either need to be extremely cheap (6pts as they are now) or given real upgrades to be Good in melee.

|Meavar wrote:
I agree we should look at the thing as a whole again.

I think the whole argument comes down like this:
Wyches need to be better so they can do something in melee.

As an army we lack certain aspects (we have few good answers to mechanized forces and big stuff).

Rending normal and fleshbane and haywire special weapons would solve some of our problems and make us more viable again. But this would mainly just shift our kabalites to wyches, we will still be nearly forced to end up with skimmerspam filled with wyches or they will never reach the enemy.

We need to look at the whole codex. I think initially the idea was to make wyches better in general combat. But we are slowly edging into trying to make wyches good at a lot of specific things, because we have a few holes in our codex and want wyches to plug all those gabs.

One more question, I sometimes hear we need better defenses, but do people feel like we need more mobility with our foot troops?
I have think we are not very good unless skimmer mounted. I would like our troops to also be possible to field without transports, but nearly all the suggestions here are just related to combat (which I agree our wyches need a boost in).
Does that mean I need better tactics to make foot sloggers viable?
Am I missing a piece of the puzzel and is getting shot to pieces not a problem, do people not mind if foot sloggers are less viable, do people only field skimmerspam so would rather not have better footsloggers since it might increase their price?
For what I notice is that people use skimmers so they arrive later in the game (deep strike) close to the objective (deep strike or high speed first move) with power from pain (deep strike or vehicles protects them from some shooting). Thus having 3 huge advantages over foot troops which is why we seldom see them at all and people have gotten used to mounting everything and are fine with it?

Our defense needs to be speed and special DS'ing redeployment , and currently we dont do either really well at all.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 05:57

|Meavar wrote:
We need to look at the whole codex. I think initially the idea was to make wyches better in general combat. But we are slowly edging into trying to make wyches good at a lot of specific things, because we have a few holes in our codex and want wyches to plug all those gabs.?

This may very well be the heart of the issue. Why we're having as much trouble as we are agreeing on stuff. Tarpit vs Killy, Rending vs Bladestorm, AT vs AGMC. I honestly am kind of surprised that this thread has gone on to its 8th page but I think this is why. We've been subconsciously trying to improve our whole codex by improving one (albeit what should be a key) unit. Weigh in if you disagree, but these are a few general points I think we can all agree on. In addition I will put a couple of points down that maybe some people will agree we want, and those that don't want it wouldn't mind it:

1) we want Wyches to be viable again. We want 2 troops choices again.
2) we don't want them to be so good there is no point in taking Kabalites
3) we want combat drugs to either be reliable, or for the unit to not need them in order to do well
4) Wych weapons leave much to be desired. They could all do the same thing or fulfill specific roles as sort of melee specialist weapons but as they are there's just one objectively better one (Hydra gauntlets) and they should gel well with combat drugs (unlike Hydra gauntlets) so that they don't confer overlapping abilities
5) Wyches and Bloodbrides should fulfill different roles so that one of the two units isn't pointless
?6) Who'd say no to some nice Wych-themed formations?

Forgive if I missed anything, or included something in there that is not as popular an idea as I thought it was when I wrote this.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 07:23

Alvaneron wrote:

Maybe we just should´nt compare them with SM, because GW loves them over the top Razz

From a gaming perspective, we HAVE to compare things to space marines, because with over 50% of ALL players using some form of space marines, they are THE STANDARD by which all other things are judged.

This is actually an extremely rudimentary element of game balance and design.

Alvaneron wrote:
let´s agree there are a s***load of variables that should be calculated, but that mathhammer is going to get me sick

You don't have to calculate or consider all those variables, but design decisions should be in the hands of people who do.

Tounguekutter wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
We need to look at the whole codex. I think initially the idea was to make wyches better in general combat. But we are slowly edging into trying to make wyches good at a lot of specific things, because we have a few holes in our codex and want wyches to plug all those gabs.?

This may very well be the heart of the issue.

It's actually not. We're arguing about the details of WHAT we want them to do in melee and how, but we're not trying to fill all the gaps in our codex with a single unit. The argument, really, comes down to making wyches good in melee against a variety of targets, or not, and what those targets should include. That's all. I wouldn't call that trying to plug all the gaps in our codex.

Giving a melee unit that is undeniably vulnerable vs. shooting the ability to hurt a vehicle in melee does not displace or replace the utility of 18"-36" ranged anti-tank weaponry. They're 2 completely different roles, the first of which isn't capable of really working in turn 1, and would only really serve to bring them up to par with what other melee-specialized units are able to do.

Tounguekutter wrote:
1) we want Wyches to be viable again.  We want 2 troops choices again.
2) we don't want them to be so good there is no point in taking Kabalites
3) we want combat drugs to either be reliable, or for the unit to not need them in order to do well
4) Wych weapons leave much to be desired.  They could all do the same thing or fulfill specific roles as sort of melee specialist weapons but as they are there's just one objectively better one (Hydra gauntlets) and they should gel well with combat drugs (unlike Hydra gauntlets) so that they don't confer overlapping abilities
5) Wyches and Bloodbrides should fulfill different roles so that one of the two units isn't pointless
?6) Who'd say no to some nice Wych-themed formations?

I agree with all of these, except 5. Making bloodbrides just BETTER versions of wyches doesn't make wyches pointless, because one is a troop and one is elite, which allows one to get objective secured while the other cannot. Based on the fact bloodbrides are just a single unit full of "sargeants" from regular wych squads, I wouldn't want them to inherently have a different role. Just make them better versions of wyches(aka, better stats), and give MUCH broader access to various upgrades, similar or identical to that of the wych "sergeants" they represent. This would allow individual groups of bloodbrides to be specialized by all choosing specific upgrades, while hanging on to the fact that they are, indeed, just better wyches.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 07:31


1) we want Wyches to be viable again. We want 2 troops choices again. YES
2) we don't want them to be so good there is no point in taking Kabalites YES
3) we want combat drugs to either be reliable, or for the unit to not need them in order to do well YES
4) Wych weapons leave much to be desired. They could all do the same thing or fulfill specific roles as sort of melee specialist weapons but as they are there's just one objectively better one (Hydra gauntlets) and they should gel well with combat drugs (unlike Hydra gauntlets) so that they don't confer overlapping abilities YES
5) Wyches and Bloodbrides should fulfill different roles so that one of the two units isn't pointless ???
6) Who'd say no to some nice Wych-themed formations? I want them, but wyches should not be viable just because of formations.

I agree with all of them, except maybe point 5
I am still on the fence of that one, I would not mind if bloodbrides are just better wyches with a slightly higher point cost and elite slot, thus the loss of objective secured, maybe a bit more specialised
So if we say wyches should fight most things to a standstill, I say let bloodbrides win from most things and fight elites to a standstill. If we want wyches to be tooled to do some damage to light vehicles, let bloodbrides have the possibility to destroy light and damage heavy vehicles. (Don't know if this qualifies as different jobs, or just more specific/ elite variant of it?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 07:52

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Alvaneron wrote:

Maybe we just should´nt compare them with SM, because GW loves them over the top Razz

From a gaming perspective, we HAVE to compare things to space marines, because with over 50% of ALL players using some form of space marines, they are THE STANDARD by which all other things are judged.

This is actually an extremely rudimentary element of game balance and design.

Agreed.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Alvaneron wrote:
let´s agree there are a s***load of variables that should be calculated, but that mathhammer is going to get me sick

You don't have to calculate or consider all those variables, but design decisions should be in the hands of people who do.

Agreed.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Tounguekutter wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
We need to look at the whole codex. I think initially the idea was to make wyches better in general combat. But we are slowly edging into trying to make wyches good at a lot of specific things, because we have a few holes in our codex and want wyches to plug all those gabs.?

This may very well be the heart of the issue.

It's actually not. We're arguing about the details of WHAT we want them to do in melee and how, but we're not trying to fill all the gaps in our codex with a single unit. The argument, really, comes down to making wyches good in melee against a variety of targets, or not, and what those targets should include. That's all. I wouldn't call that trying to plug all the gaps in our codex.

I disagree as all of the solutions we've suggested thus far would radically change dark eldar army composition. Making wyches better inherently the changes the status quo as the gains will only be meaningfully fealt if such a post update dark eldar faction didn't rely on venoms as it's dominant means of transportation. In venoms Wyches would remain ~30" away from targets and their bonus' will not matter. The listbuilding changes that good wyches would induce shifts the lens of focus on our codex around and gaps that current will disappear and wholly new gaps will arise.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Giving a melee unit that is undeniably vulnerable vs. shooting the ability to hurt a vehicle in melee does not displace or replace the utility of 18"-36" ranged anti-tank weaponry. They're 2 completely different roles, the first of which isn't capable of really working in turn 1, and would only really serve to bring them up to par with what other melee-specialized units are able to do.

Agreed, Though good wyches may directly and specifically draw a line between anti high-AV and anti low-AV. This is not a distinction I am opposed to.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Tounguekutter wrote:
1) we want Wyches to be viable again.  We want 2 troops choices again.
2) we don't want them to be so good there is no point in taking Kabalites
3) we want combat drugs to either be reliable, or for the unit to not need them in order to do well
4) Wych weapons leave much to be desired.  They could all do the same thing or fulfill specific roles as sort of melee specialist weapons but as they are there's just one objectively better one (Hydra gauntlets) and they should gel well with combat drugs (unlike Hydra gauntlets) so that they don't confer overlapping abilities
5) Wyches and Bloodbrides should fulfill different roles so that one of the two units isn't pointless
?6) Who'd say no to some nice Wych-themed formations?

I agree with all of these, except 5. Making bloodbrides just BETTER versions of wyches doesn't make wyches pointless, because one is a troop and one is elite, which allows one to get objective secured while the other cannot. Based on the fact bloodbrides are just a single unit full of "sargeants" from regular wych squads, I wouldn't want them to inherently have a different role. Just make them better versions of wyches(aka, better stats), and give MUCH broader access to various upgrades, similar or identical to that of the wych "sergeants" they represent. This would allow individual groups of bloodbrides to be specialized by all choosing specific upgrades, while hanging on to the fact that they are, indeed, just better wyches.

You don't send deathwatch squads to do ultramarine work, and you don't send rangers when the regular army will suffice. Change in FOC slot is essentially meaningless in 7th edition because GW never actually introduced mechanics were it would matter beyond killpoints AND THE LOSS OF OBSEC.Upgrading to an Elite slot is currently always a downgrade. Trueborn aren't even particularly good in detachments. Quite literally their biggest benefit is the ability to insert for warriors in formations, Otherwise the loss of obsec is too large to consider for listbuilding purposes, as demonstrated by the communities predilection for sgts with haywire grenades or blasters in kabalite squads rather than dedicated anti-vehicle trueborn, and that highlights the foundation of my point and the reason why point 5 is even up there at all: Trueborn are not played in such a way as to occupy the same role as kabalites as builds that would are rejected in favor of ob sec warriors, because the warriors are simply more cost efficient.

Even your suggestions about making them "better wyches" would make them better by changing their use role. 5 haywire guantlets serves a radically different role then 5 fleshbane weapons or 5 attack modifier weapons, and each of these possible builds is radically different in purpose from a 5 body wych squad with 1 of these 3 weapons even if every single body involved had rending. So it isn't that I disagree that differentiating based on loadout is a bad idea, it's that if that is how it is going to be done the differentiation must be done at the wych weapon level and they need to be weapons that more or less get better exponentially with quantity, or are free for bloodbrides.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 08:27

amorrowlyday wrote:

I disagree as all of the solutions we've suggested thus far would radically change dark eldar army composition. Making wyches better inherently the changes the status quo

No, I agree with you. I was disagreeing with the implication that we were attempting to use wyches to fix ALL of DE's problems, which isn't the case. Obviously making wyches, a core troop unit, better in a significant way will alter the DE meta significantly as well, as does any meaningul change in any army.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Even your suggestions about making them "better wyches" would make them better by changing their use role.

Again, I think we're in agreement while simply using different language to articulate it. It's probably my fault. Here are my concise thoughts on the matter. Tell me if they align with yours:

1. Bloodbrides should have better stats than wyches.
2. Bloodbrides should have a wide variety of upgrade options that allow them to specialize into different tactical roles, differentiating themselves from wyches.

For example, I think we should be able to make entire units of bloodbrides with agonizers, since a Hekatrix can take an agonizer, and bloodbrides are just multiple Hekatrii(Not sure of plural form). They also probably shouldn't cost them 25 points each.

Basically, I wasn't disagreeing that they SHOULDN'T have options to differentiate their roles, but that a basic, naked bloodbride SHOULD be just a better wych. And I wouldn't want them to be shoehorned into a single role like trueborn have mostly been due to lackluster comparable options with 1 clearly superior option.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   Mon Feb 06 2017, 09:59

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
amorrowlyday wrote:

I disagree as all of the solutions we've suggested thus far would radically change dark eldar army composition. Making wyches better inherently the changes the status quo

No, I agree with you. I was disagreeing with the implication that we were attempting to use wyches to fix ALL of DE's problems, which isn't the case. Obviously making wyches, a core troop unit, better in a significant way will alter the DE meta significantly as well, as does any meaningul change in any army.

Okay to borrow from the second half of your point: here we are actually disagreeing, and we're going to have to agree to disagree. I legitimately believe that wyches being able to reliably kill light vehicles is such a dramatic and effective change that literally everything else in the book, save hellions, dark lance scourges, and bloodbrides (who we're explicitly lumping in with wyches in how we address them anyway) become legitimate choices. Voidravens drop muffin tins on people rather then not being taken because 2 S9AP2 shots aren't quite worth 160pts, even with with the bomb. Incubi squads gain saturation on the table increasing their viability, and since we aren't scrimping every point to just barely skate by on av you can give all those wych squads transports tank shock at 5pts per vehicle and drive your opponents infantry out of cover. IF you're still taking Haywire Scourges they suddenly have 1 very specific job: Kill super heavy vehicles.

That isn't to say however that all our problems would be solved, no you're definitely correct there, but when the only thing we have trouble taking down is the Wraithknight I think we've become okay.


BetrayTheWorld wrote:
amorrowlyday wrote:

Even your suggestions about making them "better wyches" would make them better by changing their use role.

Again, I think we're in agreement while simply using different language to articulate it. It's probably my fault. Here are my concise thoughts on the matter. Tell me if they align with yours:

1. Bloodbrides should have better stats than wyches.
2. Bloodbrides should have a wide variety of upgrade options that allow them to specialize into different tactical roles, differentiating themselves from wyches.

For example, I think we should be able to make entire units of bloodbrides with agonizers, since a Hekatrix can take an agonizer, and bloodbrides are just multiple Hekatrii(Not sure of plural form). They also probably shouldn't cost them 25 points each.

Basically, I wasn't disagreeing that they SHOULDN'T have options to differentiate their roles, but that a basic, naked bloodbride SHOULD be just a better wych. And I wouldn't want them to be shoehorned into a single role like trueborn have mostly been due to lackluster comparable options with 1 clearly superior option.

Here you're more or less correct. We're absolutely in agreement with a term dispute, but I also disagree on point 1. I simply don't think there are major gains to be had from stat boosts due to the foundational platform being so underwhelming. GEQ don't generally belong in CC. For them to do so they need USR's. If people think the best way for them to acquire those USR's is via weapon picks then great! so long as those are cheap/free I have no problem with that approach.

I agree on agonizers, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the melee weapons table should obviously offer access to power weapons, should be available to bloodbrides and would be if we came out 6 months later. For completeness i'm repeating here that I think that the wych weapons should offer Fleshbane and haywire, at AP4 for Razorwhips and guantlets respectively, and that The shardnet and impaler should reduce enemy attack characteristic by 1 using the same language as the Howling banshee Exarch and be AP3.
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