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 Wych Cult. What do they need.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 06:51

Meavar and Count Adhemar:  You two make excellent arguments but when push comes to shove I don't think the fluff-crime of Rending on Wyches outweighs the simplicity it offers as a solution to Wyches.  I really don't see Wyches taking on Vehicles that often even with Rending, and the way I have it set up in my fandex Wyches only gain Rending through a formation and even then they only gain it as a charge bonus like Furious Charge.  In short while it is possible for a Wych to glance a Land Raider, to do so she would have to be at the absolute zenith of her power, the epic slow-motion kind of zenith, aiming at a weak point in the vehicle and even with all that going for her she only inflicts the most minor kind of noteworthy damage to a vehicle.  Game wise as Betray pointed it out the odds would be 1/6 (Drugs) by 2/3 (hit) by 1/6 (pen) by 1/3 (extra pen) by [staying alive till turn 4 - unlikely] so super unlikely.  Such an event would without a doubt be a story you'd tell on multiple occasions (as one would expect) and this mirrors that such a feat would fluff-wise be legendary.  That is what fluffy means to me.  The game in our world aligns with how the world of the game exists.

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Last edited by Tounguekutter on 2/2/2017, 07:31; edited 2 times in total
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 07:02

IMHO Wyches are fine technically, they're just overcosted. Drop them to 5 points a piece and they fall in line with the rest of the meta. Of course almost everything we have is overpriced, I'd say about 25% on average across the board for what we get out of the units. Adjusting the price of Wyches to be appropriate for their utility would probably be easier than rebalancing the entire codex. It's established what works now and to what effectiveness, so we could base adjustments off of that. I'd be happy as a clam if the next codex to come out is more or less the same but with proper points values. Things like 90 points for a squad of haywire or heat lance Scourge, 25 for a Wych unit, Incubi only 15 a piece, etc. Small changes that add up to more cost effective list building.

Alternatively, give Wyches the Smash special rule. It doesn't make sense fluff-wise but you can't deny that'd be hilarious to see.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 07:28

@Toungekutter: I am also not in favor of granting rending to wyches. But agreed that a lot of changes ended up invalidating lot's of units, even if quite some got a deserved price reduction.

@ TeenageAngst: While I am not saying that some things need to be cheaper, I think some of your prices are slightly to much. 5 points for an wych would be insane. 15 for incubi also seems a bit low.
25% across the board, just makes dark elder better (and while not the best they are also not 25% to expensive), changing the prices of everything will not change the options that are bad, it will just make the good options better. Some units right now do not fulfill any good role.

I think wracks are a perfect exemple. They are not really bad, but grotesque are just better. Wracks are supposed to be the though dudes who can wound anything, but with a higher s and t grotesques are much thougher. Against any low t the damage is not that different, but it often means low str attacks back which also means much less damage suffered by the grotesques. Against high thoughness most creatures also get multiple wounds thus the instand death overcomes part of the drawback of less attacks (but wracks have a small advantage in # of wounds dealt.
As soon as the t (and enemy str) becomes really high both struggle since poison does not work anymore because they are GMC. Thus while wracks might be ok in a list that would have no other poison or no t5 options with only slightly lower damage output, for us they are lackluster. We have so much problems with survivability that the extra t is worth more then the extra attacks wracks get.

Reducing the price for wracks will either not help much, or the price will become to good compared to other similar units in other codexes. Having them back in core and thus possibly objective secured would be a better option in my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 07:32

Here is the unit entry for Wyches and Bloodbrides in my fandex:

Wyches - 50 points - Troops

(Statlines remain the same for all)

Unit Type:  Infantry, Character (Hekatrix, Syren)
Unit Composition:  4 Wyches
Wargear:  Close combat weapon, Combat Drugs, Splinter pistol, Plasma grenades, Wychsuit
Special Rules:  Commorraghi, Dodge Save (4+), Precision Strikes (Bloodbrides and Syrens make Precision Strikes on 5+)
A Syren has the Preferred Stims special rule.  A model with this special rule allows her squad to choose their own Combat Drugs
Options:  
May take up to 16 additional Wyches - 10 points per model
The entire squad may take Haywire grenades - 5 points per model
For every 5 models in the squad, 2 may exchange their Splinter pistol and Close combat weapon with a pair of weapons from the Wych weapons list in the Armory
One model may be upgraded to a Hekatrix - 10 points
The Hekatrix may take Melee and Wych weapons from the Armory,
The Hekatrix may exchange her Splinter pistol for a Blast pistol - 15 points
The entire squad may be upgraded from Wyches to Bloodbrides, changing their battlefield role to Elites - 3 points per model
The entire squad of Bloodbrides may take Poisoned knives - 5 points per model
Any Bloodbride may take a weapon from the Wych weapons list in the Armory
One Bloodbride may be upgraded to a Syren - 10 points
The Syren may take the same weapons as a Hekatrix
The squad (Wyches or Bloodbrides) may take a Venom or a Raider as a dedicated transport

Commorraghi is just a special rules bundle to keep me sane.  It includes Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain, and Murderous Intent.
Murderous Intent:  When models with this special rule roll to make a Charge move the final die value of one die may be counted as a “4”.  (So normally roll two dice and count the lowest as a 4 if it is less than 4 for minimum of 5 and a maximum of 12) (units with the Fleet special rule may still re-roll any dice before finally counting a die as a “4” when charging)

As for Wych weapons I kept their points costs but made them all AP 4.  Shardnet subtracts an attack to minimum 1 from a single model of your choice (the net is too small to entangle multiple enemies), the Razorflails allow the wearer to attack with full complement of attacks at Initiative 10 and then again normally, and Hydra Gauntlets allow for wearer to add 2 to their Wound roll to max 6.

Wychsuits confer the Quicksilver special rule:
Quicksilver:  A model with this special rule may make a 6+ Cover Save against Overwatch fire when charging an enemy unit.  If the model would already receive a cover save from enemy Overwatch because they are charging through cover, improve their cover save by 1.  The Quicksilver special rule is sometimes displayed with a number in brackets.  That number corresponds to the cover save the model may make when applying the effects of this special rule.  A model with such a special rule would improve its existing cover save by the difference of its save from 7 (so +2 to its Cover Save if it had Quicksilver (5+)).  If a model receives the Quicksilver special rule from multiple sources the bonuses stack.  For example, receiving Quicksilver twice grants the model Quicksilver (5+).

Power from Pain is the same except on turn 2 models gain the Quicksilver special rule in addition to Feel No Pain (6+), and on turn 4 it's improved to Quicksilver (5+) in addition to Furious Charge. Also there are bonuses that go beyond turn 6 but it is hard to get there except for Coven.

And this is their basic formation (there is another one but this is the main one for Wych love)

Shadow Blade Formation

Compulsory:  minimum of 30 models (no maximum) of Wyches or Bloodbrides in any combination but no more than 1 Bloodbride model for every 2 Wych models.
Special Rules:  
Deific Bloodlust:  On the turn they Charge, melee attacks from models in this formation gain the Rending special rule and add 1 to their attacks (this stacks with the Rage special rule)
Recurring Nightmare:  All units in the formation have the Hit and Run special rule and add may add up to 3” to the result of the distance rolled when performing a Hit and Run move
Strike and Fade:  Units from this detachment may re-embark into their Raider or  Venom dedicated transport using their Hit and Run special rule, as long as the model furthest from the transport can move within 2” of the vehicle.  Bloodbride units may re-embark using this special rule if they can move within 4” of the vehicle

If by some miracle you made it through all that congratulations you now know all of my changes to Wyches.  Definitely a unit I overhauled.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 07:57

@|Meavar wrote:
I agree with all the then/now points.

The 2 things I disagree with: reavers are to expensive to use as suicide troops (no small 3 unit models are fine and cost the same as those 5 man wych squads before) and units have become more specialized.

I think the problem is not that we have become more specialized, but that we lack punch. In most cases the option is there, it just is not good enough. So either we should become cheaper and lose the option, or the option has to become a real option and not just paperfiller.
The reavers are ok as melee troops but just not good enough as suicide tank destroyers. We can still do it, we have the dtools, we are just not good enough at it.
We can take some haywire and melee options on scourges, but they are then over prized in melee and are still not good enough in melee.
Wyches have PG and can take a HWG and are melee troops, but they are not good enough in either melee and 1 haywire attack is not enough to kill tanks.
Mandrakes have 2 attacks, but without assault grenades (and incentive to stay in terrain) makes that they die to fast in combat.
Hellions have speed, reasonable shooting and s4 and ap5 are great but lack the # attacks to kill hordes, thus we die to them when they hit back/ shoot over-watch.
Trueborn have the option for nice guns, but also have 2 attacks but no option for 2 hand weapons anymore.

Another part that really hurt us. The current meta supports killing things easy.
Before you usually could keep 1 vehicle alive if you needed to, place it behind terrain, give it nightshields and most things could not reach it the first round.
Now a lot of armies can kill it in 1 turn easy anyway. Thus we are more dependent on multiple small units and redundancy (multiples of the same). This makes larger units less effective even if units need to be larger to fulfill their job because they die easier.

I think much of this analysis is due to the lack of experience you mentioned before. As you play more, you'll realize there are some important over-arching game concepts that have to be considered. Furthermore, be aware that there is no quality control for people's opinions posted on the internet. You will no doubt read many things posted by people who are themselves completely clueless, yet can present what sounds like a reasonable argument for their position in a thread. You may have read some bad advice/opinions. There is no shortage of them.

I'd try to check people's credentials whenever possible. These are people who's tactical advice I'd tend to give more weight to around here, as they're either proven tournament players, or they've proven their tactical acumen to OTHER known tournament players(no offense to anyone not on this list): @Skulnbonz, @Amorrowlyday, @Hydranixx, @BizarreShowBiz, @Stilgar27, @Kantalla, @The Spider

This doesn't mean all the people on this list always agree. I've personally had disagreements with almost all of them, but their arguments are intelligent and derived from tactically and mathematically sound positions. I expect most of them would agree with my position on rending for wyches if they read this entire thread, though some might prefer the idea of bladestorm. I staunchly believe rending is what they need, but I would be content with a bladestorm-like ability so long as they got squad-wide HWGs as an option again.

That's not to say I don't support making changes to wych weapons too. I'd probably just make "wych weapons" cheap(5 points), able to be taken by every bloodbride, and very simple. Like make all of them do the same thing: Grant rerolls to wound. Paired with a rending type ability, I think that would make wych weapons worth taking without making them OP.

@Tounguekutter wrote:

Unit Composition:  4 Wyches

Is this a typo?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 08:05

4 Wyches minimum squad size would be great in a Venom with an HQ.
Trueborn too.
Also make Bloodbrides worth taking pls.

How about making elites better by allowing only them minimum size 4?
Would be fluffy too.

Elites with HQ in a Venom.


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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 08:11

Quote :
I think wracks are a perfect exemple.

You're right, they're not as good as Grotesques. Make them troops though, with ob-sec, and they suddenly have a purpose. They're not as tough as grots, but they can claim objectives better. Being T4 with a FNP and having poison attacks in close combat means they'd be the go-to choice for a unit to dig in on an objective.

Also, 15 for an Incubi IMO is about right considering the while song and dance you need to do with them in order for them to be solid in close combat. Either that, or keep them at 20 points, give them grenades, give the Klaivex a second wound, and maybe give them Rage or something like that as a little boostie.

5 for Wyches is about right for a tarpit unit, maybe 6. What would make them insane is not the Wyches themselves but their ability to take dedicated transports while costing 15 points less than a warrior squad.

The point I was trying to make is mostly that the units themselves are by and large technically fine and could fill a role, but might not be able to fill that role currently given their current cost. Points jimmying would do a lot to alleviate our gaps. Not all of them of course, but many.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 08:18

Oof that was a rough 5 pages.

@Tounguekutter, sorry dude but I'm not sure how much help your fandex here is. There's a lot of interesting ideas there for sure and I'll have to try it out myself sometime and see how it plays.

I don't really like the idea of wyches being able to damage a rhino beyond a haywire grenade. Someone mentioned that the reason they should be able to damage a rhino is because of an exposed wire or something...when was the last time you've looked at one? That things locked up tighter than a frat's secret stash during a party bust. Almost every unit in the dex has an initial role that they play. That role can then be augmented by upgrades to give an auxiliary role. Kabs getting a blaster is a fine example of this. Wych leader gets a haywire grenade? Cool. Works for me. Seems fluffy enough. They're not dumb enough to charge into a war zone without the tools they need.

That being said I have no idea how to make wyches damage monstrous creatures in a reliable way. Maybe they just straight up shouldn't. Maybe the battlefield isn't a good place for them to be able to take down a carnifex. Maybe these wyches you hired aren't the ones that can kill a carnifex, Go get your Succubus to do that instead.

At the end of the day, it's a tabletop game, balance is hard. Not only internal codex but overall game wise. AND I think it's weird to try and compare units between codexes. Sure daemonettes are cheaper but what sort of transport do those fancy pants have?

Although it used to be fluffy for wyches to extract as much pain from their targets as possible, that's no longer the case with our new post from pain table. All is fair in love and war and if I was a wych I'd sure as the sun rises in the morning bring some sort of poison with me. Maelstrom missions aren't a place to show off, kill and take prisoners. Use poison. It's war, not a show.

Take with all the salt you need. I do not think rending is the way to go, nor is it fluffy.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 08:27

@TeenageAngst wrote:

The point I was trying to make is mostly that the units themselves are by and large technically fine and could fill a role, but might not be able to fill that role currently given their current cost. Points jimmying would do a lot to alleviate our gaps. Not all of them of course, but many.

On a level, I agree with you. But when looking at DE as a single organic entity, I disagree. DE needs some offensive help. Period. Lowering points costs won't make that happen unless we start getting 65 point ravagers or something(not unreasonable compared to hornets).

That said, on an individual basis, like wyches being reduced to 5-6 points, I agree that it would make them useful. I'd definitely consider taking wyches at that points value, mostly for their ability to unlock obsec transports for 25 points per unit.

However, despite being useful by being cheap, I would cry a little inside that we just decided to be OK with wyches not at all matching their fluff, even a little bit.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 08:41

Really, of all the things coming in the new book/overfaction, the DE having access to Wraith units is most exciting to me. It always kinda made sense to me that they would incorporate them since the Haemonculi have been doing necromancy for millennia before the Craftworlders did. If we get Wraithknights and Wraithguard, there's our offensive powerhouses right there, and they mesh so well with our army's tactics.

As for making Wyches more powerful AND more fluffy... um... free wych weapons?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 08:49

Ooh! Random thought I had as I'm falling asleep! What if wyches ignored armor but their to hit chart was based on armor? Like 5+ against 2+ saves? As I type that it might be too much. 10 wyches on a charge = 30 attacks, 5+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 3.333 wounds get through but termies have 5++? So 2.22? Would that be reasonable?
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 10:27

At 5 points I'd consider Wyches purely for cheap access to Venoms but that wouldn't solve the basic problem of them being utterly useless at their intended role.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 10:43

All excellent points Betray Smile really useful insight. I still hold that Wyches should be a last-resort tool to use against vehicles though, both according to their fluff and if they were given Rending, rather than an answer to any of those issues. They'd still be a suicide unit, either decimated if the vehicle explodes or just mulched by the squad that jumps out. As I see it, there's a host of changes that need to be done to address those points.

I'm a firm believer that Dark Eldar survivability needs to come not from armour or invulns, but from sneaky stuff like JSJ shenanigans, or Night Shields that function like mini-Veil of Tears.

The last one is where Wyches should come in, in my opinion. If we give them Bladestorm then they're at least half-decently killy against standard troops, but also can lay down a wound or two on a GMC. Their dodge save makes them more survivable against stomps. Then, if you give them Fleshbane Hydra Gauntlets so a squad of 10 can put out 6 Fleshbane attacks wounding GMCs on a 2+, on top of the additional Bladestorm wounds, they get a little scarier. If it's a squad of 5 Hydra Gauntlet Bloodbrides (in a 4/5 special weapon scenario) then they'd put out 12 Fleshbane attacks (hopefully at a higher WS).

Having Wyches bring down monstrous creatures and giant beasts like a little swarm of army ants is really rather fluffy, and fills a niche in our army that is sorely lacking (points-effective GMC killers). Couple that with enough utility against standard targets to make them a half-decent alternative to Kabalites and suddenly Wyches are good again (while not ousting another unit in our army that's supposed to have a different niche).

We have other tools specifically for vehicles. Make them usable, rather than replace them with Rending Wyches.

If we make Scourges Jetpack Infantry, they gain the Relentless they need to use Dark Lances properly (giving us a mobile platform for massed Darklight if we need it), but also give them some semblance of survivability by letting them scoot away into cover after blasting something with HWB. They'd still die like flies on planet bowling ball, but that's a stacked game anyway.

Last I heard Caltrop Reavers were a pretty good tool for popping Rhinos and scooting off somewhere else after surviving through target saturation, or is it more that they're the best tool we have rather than an outright good tool?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 10:46

I can imagine a captured leman russ in a Dark Eldar arena pitted against a wych gang, the challenge being how the wyches can get close enough to fire splinters into vision ports, jam grenades into treads and sponsons, or even pry open a hatch.

Gladiatorial matches are all about insane crowd pleasing spectacle after all. How it's represented in the rules... well that's why this discussion's gone into page 5 as of this post.

Wych weapons are some of the coolest looking melee weaponry in 40k, so I find it disappointing that they're "something worse than a venom blade or power sword". Like when space marines get new melee gear it's the Dark Angels "better than a power sword" flails, night lords "better than a power sword" chainsabers, deathwatch and custodes "better than a power sword" guardian spears, space wolf "wolfed up power weapon" wolf wolfers. Even Eldar storm guardians get "here's a power sword" access. So I'm for powering up the flails and gauntlets and nets to be at the very least comparable to a plain old power sword.

Quote :
If we make Scourges Jetpack Infantry

What if they were both jetpack and jump pack infantry, you just choose the movement mode per turn? Represents the high quality augmentation and anti-grav tech of their wings. Assault weapon scourges still get to benefit from faster movement.

Hellions can choose to move as jumppacks to dash through the open or beasts to get through terrain. It's a way to represent "superior quality of Eldar technology" without creating too many new rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 11:17

Ah do Jetpack Infantry not move as fast as Jump Pack ones? Must go brush up on that...

Neat idea for a formation bonus though Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 20:40

Jump pack infantry can move 12" over stuff in the Movement phase OR re-roll their charge distance in the Assault phase.

Jet pack infantry (I think) move normally in movement phase but can make essentially a thrust move in the Assault phase if they elect not to charge.  This is why Jet packs are usually equipped to generally shooty units and Jump packs are generally equipped to choppy units.

In my fandex I kept Scourge unit type to Jump infantry for that sweet 12" movement phase move, but made them Relentless and gave them the ability to deep strike mid-game a la Swooping Hawks (however, if they do so they may not make invulnerable saves for a turn and they do not drop a bomb when they come down).  I also upped their base points cost to 22 but I wonder if that's still not enough:  their points went up by 37.5% but with these changes they are the ultimate JumpShootJump unit.  Probably best left for another post but I'd love to hear your thoughts in a private message. I think I am also going to start a post in the Rules development section.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 21:00

@BetrayTheWorld

I think we know your stance about Rending on Wyches pretty well by now, but I do wonder how exactly would you now change the Wyches? All I hear is "Rending" and maybe Fleshbane but no talk about the remaining parts of the unit.

So, just a usual 10 point Wych with mostly useless unchanged Combat Drugs and a 4++ that does not work against overwatch?

While I heard more fleshed out concepts from others, I found your contribution to be more along the nature of "ideas". Don't take this the wrong way, I would just like to know how exactly you are imagining your Wyches. With all the changed statistic, rules and costs.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   2/2/2017, 22:23

@ynneadwraith I've thought about treating scourges that way too. After re-reading the jump and jetpack rules they ought definitely be jump units. The simplest solution for them is actually the best one: just give them the relentless usr. Had we come out 15 months later I firmly believe that there is a rather high chance they'd just have it anyway.

To the wyches and GMC's question there isn't a good answer and that is appropriate. The only good solutions to GMC's are fleshbane and ID+AP. Fleshbane seems like a perfectly fluffy way to differentiate between bloodbrides and wyches as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 00:51

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld

I think we know your stance about Rending on Wyches pretty well by now, but I do wonder how exactly would you now change the Wyches? All I hear is "Rending" and maybe Fleshbane but no talk about the remaining parts of the unit.

So, just a usual 10 point Wych with mostly useless unchanged Combat Drugs and a 4++ that does not work against overwatch?

While I heard more fleshed out concepts from others, I found your contribution to be more along the nature of "ideas". Don't take this the wrong way, I would just like to know how exactly you are imagining your Wyches. With all the changed statistic, rules and costs.

I actually have already gone over this a bit, although it is a long thread. This is what I'd do:

Give wyches rending.
Give wyches the option to purchase squad-wide HWG for 1ppm.
Make wych weapons cost 5 points and all do the same thing: Grant rerolls to wound.
Give bloodbrides/hekatrix/syren +1WS and the ability to buy wych weapons on every model.

Done. Essentially, I'm not trying to change the core of what a wych is, so there isn't a lot to flesh out. Just add a special rule, and make a couple tweaks. Suddenly wyches are capable of what they're capable of in the fluff without being overpowered, and bloodbrides are sufficiently better than wyches so that they're worth considering. I don't mind wyches being vulnerable to shooting/overwatch, so long as when they get into combat, they can perform like they're supposed to.

I'm a big fan of wych weapons all doing the same thing because every time GW releases different rules for each wych weapon, there is one that is clearly better than the others. And they all look so cool, I'd really like to be able to use them all without sacrificing functionality. Also, rerolls to wound creates synergy with rending.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 01:22

Sorry for the repeat but I'd really like someone's opinion on this. What's the viability of something like a neurotoxin for wyches? Lowered attacks maybe? Or was the final agreement that the old rules for shard net stuff pretty good for that? If wyches were able to tie down a GMC by reducing attacks and surviving  for several turns would they fill the GMC gap in the codex? stun, cripple or control is how the Dark Eldar work ya?


Also would it make any sense for wyches "to hit" to be based on the opponent's armor value and they ignore normal armor saves? I could see it being pretty annoying having a special to hit chart for only the wyches but it makes them slightly more viable if they were more Killy in CC. Like maybe a 5+ hit for 2+ armor, 4+ for 3+ armor, etc. With maybe a max of 2+ against guardsmen. It would make them decent against most units but would it put incubi out of a job?

@betray, bloodbrides with wych weapons would run at 18pts a pop as you suggest, let's say a squad of 10 for 180 vs. 9 Incubi for 180. Let's say against SM or termies. 40 attacks, 20 hit, 6.66 wound with 3.33 being rending, rerolling the 13.33 misses leaves us with 4.44 new wounds, 2.22 rending. So a total of 5.55 normal wounds and 5.55 rending. With termie 5++ that's 3.7 rending wounds through or 4.65 after 2+ on normal wounds. Against SM that makes sense to me, against some of the larger targets like termies or carnifexs that seems a bit too much, even for bloodbrides. The incubi swing for 27 attacks, 18 hit, 6 wound, 4 wounds total after 5++.

So I guess points wise they'd be roughly the same but the bloodbrides would far outshine the incubi in utility and viability.

Edit:forgot to include +1 weaponskill on the bloodbrides. They'd be even better.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 02:33

I don't see a problem with that at all. They take up the same FOC slot and are both CC units after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 02:56

@Barrywise wrote:
Also would it make any sense for wyches "to hit" to be based on the opponent's armor value and they ignore normal armor saves?

I think this would be too powerful. It'd be sort of like melee grav, basically, which would ruin things like wraithknights. I'm all for it being POSSIBLE for wyches to get some incredibly lucky rolls to rend down a wraithknight, but this would make wyches taking out wraithknights almost a certainty.

@Barrywise wrote:
@betray, bloodbrides with wych weapons would run at 18pts a pop as you suggest, let's say a squad of 10 for 180 vs. 9 Incubi for 180. Let's say against SM or termies. 40 attacks, 20 hit, 6.66 wound with 3.33 being rending, rerolling the 13.33 misses leaves us with 4.44 new wounds, 2.22 rending. So a total of 5.55 normal wounds and 5.55 rending. With termie 5++ that's 3.7 rending wounds through or 4.65 after 2+ on normal wounds. Against SM that makes sense to me, against some of the larger targets like termies or carnifexs that seems a bit too much, even for bloodbrides. The incubi swing for 27 attacks, 18 hit, 6 wound, 4 wounds total after 5++.

Your comparison is using bloodbrides taken optimally with incubi taken in a suboptimal way. Also, your math had incubi wounding on 5+ instead of 4+, which they get because of the +1S from Klaives. A klaivex increases the damage output of a unit of 3 incubi disproportionately to another regular incubi due to rampage, so a klaivex should always be included, and klaivex always taken in MSU. So let's take a look at this with clear math(including the WS5 from wyches):

Our target calculation is Wounds per point spent, or WPPS.

Against TEQ without invuln:
5 Bloodbrides 20A>13.32H>7.400W>4.35Unsaved. 4.350 wounds/90 unit cost = .0483 WPPS
2 Incubi+Klaiv 12A>7.992H>3.996W>3.996Unsaved. 3.996 wounds/70 unit cost = .0570 WPPS

Against TEQ with 5+ invuln:
5 Bloodbrides 20A>13.32H>7.400W>3.119Unsaved. 4.350 wounds/90 unit cost = .0347 WPPS
2 Incubi+Klaiv 12A>7.992H>3.996W>3.996Unsaved. 2.661 wounds/70 unit cost = .0380 WPPS

Against MEQ:
5 Bloodbrides 20A>13.32H>7.400W>4.92Unsaved. 4.92 wounds/90 unit cost = .0547 WPPS
2 Incubi+Klaiv 12A>7.992H>3.996W>3.996Unsaved. 3.996 wounds/70 unit cost = .0570 WPPS

So Incubi would be better, point for point, against TEQ, TEQ5++, and MEQ. Furthermore, they're far more survivable to shooting and vehicle explosions with their 3+ armour save, and have better saves in combat against anything that isn't AP3 or better.

Bloodbrides, on the other hand would be more fragile, but still good at killing MEQ and TEQ, while excelling at killing lesser infantry like GEQ. They're an elite-slot infantry unit in the same price range as Incubi. They SHOULD be comparable to incubi in melee, while having subtle differences in how they're best applied. Basically, wyches would be trading away the Inbuci's significant survivability and offensive punch against MEQ/TEQ for increased utility against horde infantry.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 03:08

Ah I totally did forget the +1 S, thank you very much for calling me out on that, sorry!!! Do you mind if I steal your method of writing out mathammer as well? I quite like that.

I apologize for my atrocious errors, you are right and I retract my previous statements.

The Blood Brides would be decent at taking on monstrous creatures as well...at least better than the incubi that's for sure. Can't imagine their giant Klaives would allow them to dodge very well.

Edit: also super thank you for taking the time for the math. As an engineer to be I quite appreciate it.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 03:20

No problem at all! No need to apologize. Glad I could help clear up my thoughts on the matter for you! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Cult. What do they need.   3/2/2017, 05:11

It's cooperating and helping each other like this that warms my heart to no end.  I store that warmth for when pessimistic chill sets in.

Note:  I think pessimists are just as important as optimists in society because both kinds of people help prepare everyone around them for eventualities, and discourage those dreams which are far too high to be pursued.  Yes, even as an optimist I think such projects exist, like when my dad thought he could build a bike trailer out of crutches Laughing

Just double checking how are 5 naked bloodbrides 90 points? Shouldn't it be something like 65? Is this supposed to be modified Bloodbrides? Sorry for being out of the loop.

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