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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 18:19

No, really, its a known fact that GW has this problem in US. A lot of its income there comes from "thanks mum" and the share is increasing. Its hard for mums not to buy them stuff with big hammers or guns among the Thors and Iron Mans these days. But the sexual stuff is something they can still forbid.

As for the current state of the setting - its good, but its stale and it starts to stink. Movement has to happen. And not only for that reason, but for the reason of opening windows for new iconic models that has proven to be great business...
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 18:25

Yes, don't forget that the advancing of the story is a way to introduce new books and models to the customer. They look great, so I'm not opposed. And it's fun to hear about new things happening.

I bet the rules come with a few missions and formations, etc. I don't think they'll rewrite 3 codecies just to release 3 models.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 19:06

@TeenageAngst
If Commorragh gets destroyed, the Webway would collapse and be destroyed along with it. As long as the webway exists there will be places to hide and and build bases.
To begin with, the total collapse of the webway is extremely unlikely to ever happen. Even then, that would only be in an End-Times scenario for 40k. And we are far, far away from that.

I think this summarizes the situation of GW quite well:


It's really just unfounded doom and gloom.


If GW really wants to kick us in the guts, they squat us directly and not do weird stuff to screw us up.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 19:10

They're not gonna squat us because our models sell and are some of the best looking in the line. They're just going to neuter our fluff so we hit that sweet market appeal.

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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:31

Yeah i think you're concerned about a very unlikely eventuality Smile

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:55

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I think this summarizes the situation of GW quite well:

Haha, best use of that scene yet!

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:58

Personally, I always thought that the huge aspect of Commorragh (other than death and doom) was that everything comes at a price. That to me was what kept the DE on edge and made them grimdark. You want those titties? 1 soul please. Yours preferred.

P.S. Just picked up all 3 books and will be reading soon, may sway my opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Wed Jan 25 2017, 02:35

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I think this summarizes the situation of GW quite well:

Haha, best use of that scene yet!
http://www.captiongenerator.com/48463/Hitler-reacts-to-Age-of-Sigmar

My personal favorite :>
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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Wed Jan 25 2017, 04:48

@CptMetal wrote:
Why do you guys think that nipples are a problem? Must be an American problem because I've never heard that here actually...

It's a 'theory'* that keeps on coming up after AoS said "Slaanesh is missing whodunnit" and the other 3 Chaos gods getting new models. It's more likely they're saving slaanesh for some "vs Aelfs" set.

For me the Juan Diaz daemonettes are the best daemonettes yet, it's really the current one-boob daemonettes that feel mediocre for slaanesh's theme. When I talk about using something else other than titties it's so a champion of slaanesh can have a distinguishing feature other than "he grew one boob" and your chaos beast can be something other than "a scorpion-horse covered in boobs". With the fiend you can see there's already arachnid elements, so it's more emphasizing different things than inserting in something new.

GW does seem to be moving away from 'grow a tit' being the mark of slaanesh, but the way they show it just feels like "yeah he has more elf proportions". There hasn't been anything as distinct as Nurgle's "you're fat and rotting", Khorne's "skulls, huge muscles, and khorne's distinct horns", or Tzeentch's "birds and robes".

Way back in the day there was a pretty neat multi-armed slaanesh champion with a snake lower body, he had one-boob too but it was the snakey bits that made it stand out among the chaos section of the local hobby store.

There's various powers of hypnosis and venom with slaanesh, which is also associated with venomous critters. 80's Conan movie Thulsa Doom has a pleasure cult he controls with his hypnotic gaze and he turns into a giant snake, sexy evil drow have sexy evil spider goddesses, it's strong imagery that fits with the slaanesh portfolio. How tentacles fit in, well that goes without saying.

*Also the most lewd, thongs galore set GW ever made came with AoS...

--------


As for what makes DE distinct, someone on here described their society as "EVE Online" down to regeneration from a vat. That DE can indulge in thrilling combat, die, and if they collected enough soulmonies, come back to life to fight again makes their society both utterly alien (we can't do that in real life) and relatable (we do that in video games tho'). The short description of a dark eldar regenerating from a hand and punching his way out of his coffin was what hooked me with the pirate soul eater space elves.

I wouldn't worry much about DE losing their edginess in that regard as they're centered around violence and goin' fast, they never had boobs as a core theme to begin with :p
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Wed Jan 25 2017, 07:03

Quote :
As for what makes DE distinct, someone on here described their society as "EVE Online" down to regeneration from a vat.
That someone was me. I was describing how their society might function, not as an example of what it quintessentially means to be a Dark Eldar. Personally I'm rather enamored with the idea of Dark Eldar thirsting for intense emotions to stave off their own demise, it's like a constant hunger, a wearing mortality they all feel. They cover it up with pride and vanity, and glory in their own despicable acts until the only weakness they show is their own haughty demeanor and their only morality is the careful equilibrium of egos. They make themselves into monsters more fiendish than the ones they try to hide from because if they do not they will be consumed. They go on raids for the thrill of the hunt as much as their own mutual unspoken fear. As evil as they are, it makes them slightly tragic. It adds that layer of depth that separates them from some cartoon villain. If Ynnead removes that threat to their own mortality, it removes that depth, and what you're left with is a bunch of BDSM space elfs that murder stuff for funsies and literally no other reason. They become boring and frankly that's worse than any rules nerf to me.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Wed Jan 25 2017, 08:23

Whole Slaanesh range needs to be redone, thats why the past years were aiming the spotlight on the other 3. Now we will have armies of stray titties and deathmetal players roaming the realspace and the realms without their god to watch over them only for him to come back in a roar of reformation of its faith from sex, drugs and rock'n'roll into... into... well... hugs, milkshakes and kiddietunes (horrendously amplified)? Well... thats what you get when you are trying to show titties in US.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Wed Jan 25 2017, 09:54

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
As for what makes DE distinct, someone on here described their society as "EVE Online" down to regeneration from a vat.
That someone was me. I was describing how their society might function, not as an example of what it quintessentially means to be a Dark Eldar. Personally I'm rather enamored with the idea of Dark Eldar thirsting for intense emotions to stave off their own demise, it's like a constant hunger, a wearing mortality they all feel. They cover it up with pride and vanity, and glory in their own despicable acts until the only weakness they show is their own haughty demeanor and their only morality is the careful equilibrium of egos. They make themselves into monsters more fiendish than the ones they try to hide from because if they do not they will be consumed. They go on raids for the thrill of the hunt as much as their own mutual unspoken fear. As evil as they are, it makes them slightly tragic. It adds that layer of depth that separates them from some cartoon villain. If Ynnead removes that threat to their own mortality, it removes that depth, and what you're left with is a bunch of BDSM space elfs that murder stuff for funsies and literally no other reason. They become boring and frankly that's worse than any rules nerf to me.

This. I'm hoping it all goes royally wrong in true Eldar fashion, and they instead get bound to two hungering eldritch warp-entities that are vying for their souls in the warp Wink

As for the Slaanesh range, I don't particularly care if there are bare boobs. That's neither here nor there (although would be preferable...especially if the occasional Daemonette has 6...)

What I miss from the Daemonette range is the sensuousness. I can absolutely imagine the Juan Diaz daemonettes slinking across the battlefield, hips swaying, eyes dead-set on the Guardsman ahead who is frozen in place by a mix of terror and inexplicable utter adoration.

The new Daemonettes I can imagine clumping across the battlefield on their oversized bird-feet, shrieking like your mother-in-law before the Guardsman in front of them cap them in the head in a massive display of 'what the f*ck is that...do not want'.

Send the Juan Diaz daemonettes to a bra-fitter and job done. It's their posing that makes them perfect. Not the nipples Wink

Oh, and a little treatise on human attraction from a long-past psychology degree Wink

What most people deem to be 'beautiful' can be handily summarised as 'symmetrical'. People find people with symmetrical faces and bodies more attractive. The Juan Diaz daemonettes played on this to a perfect degree. Their human bodies were perfectly symmetrical, but their (sparse) daemonic parts were out of kilter. Brilliant way of making something seem attractive, but give a little hint of 'something's not right here'....

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Wed Jan 25 2017, 15:04

@TeenageAngst wrote:
They make themselves into monsters more fiendish than the ones they try to hide from because if they do not they will be consumed.

Just so there is no confusion, it was the dark eldar's debauchery, hedonism, and fiendish predilictions that birthed a chaos god, not the other way around. Imagine how extreme their depravity must have been to create a god by accident that instantly consumed half of the universe.

DE are the continuation of that race's already existing predilictions. While they DO now have to feed off of raw emotion, it was THEY who created that situation with their already fiendish habits, let's not forget. DE could absolutely still be DE without Slaanesh. They could even keep their power from pain without Slaanesh. I don't think there is anything that definitively ties that to Slaanesh, so even without she who thirsts, the DE could still have to feed on emotional energy.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 04:26

Here are my predictions. There are too many Slaanesh kits and fans I think to scrap the whole faction entirely, so I think Slaanesh models and their patron will still be present when the Gathering Storm quiets. Ynnead will not be so much a Chaos God as much as a competitor to the four chaos gods. He will require great suffering to be inflicted on non-aelfs in order for Dark Eldar to benefit from his protection from Slaanesh. So Dark Eldar will remain beholden to Ynnead and forced to inflict suffering and that tragic angle will be preserved, Slaanesh will be preserved, but I think in the future GW will emphasize sensuousness over outright nudity. At least I hope Ynneadwraith is right about that.

I am ever the optimist but I think this is the best outcome story-wise and GW-money-wise. I just can't see them doing anything too drastic with their biggest cash cow it's too risky and they know it.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 04:49

Quote :
DE are the continuation of that race's already existing predilictions. While they DO now have to feed off of raw emotion, it was THEY who created that situation with their already fiendish habits, let's not forget. DE could absolutely still be DE without Slaanesh. They could even keep their power from pain without Slaanesh. I don't think there is anything that definitively ties that to Slaanesh, so even without she who thirsts, the DE could still have to feed on emotional energy.
They didn't need to before, they chose to, and they were painfully uninteresting. Now they need to and they don't like admitting it, which makes it interesting. In the future they will not need to anymore and will still do it, because as I said, depth is bad.

Quote :
I am ever the optimist but I think this is the best outcome story-wise and GW-money-wise. I just can't see them doing anything too drastic with their biggest cash cow it's too risky and they know it.
This is GW we're talking about.

Anyway my prediction stands. Rolling us into an overfaction, DE fluff gets neutered, Craftworlders and Harlequins team up with us, and we're all living together under the almighty power of Ynnead. Maximum target market potential is giving people a reason to buy DE models, which look cool, without all the nastiness involved. Sure, they can be cruel and evil, but they're going to file the edge off and make it 100% entirely optional to running them. You could have "reformed" Dark Eldar that way. Naturally it could go the other direction where we strongarm some Farseers into doing our bidding but as a two-for-one I'm going to say Commorragh gets nuked and we're going to be homeless, so good luck with that one.

Why am I saying Commorragh is going to be nuked? Because Gangs of Commorragh is coming out right before it, and removing the entire setting for a game you just released from the main fluff is the kind of astronomically terrible writing we've come to expect from our Spiritual Liege.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 04:52

@BetrayTheWorld

As I pointed out earlier there is also nothing to suggest that Dark Eldar long for death, in fact we have much to suggest the opposite. Building off your comment there nothing whatsoever to suggest that the Dark at large will bow to a god of the dead. The goal is eternal life and fortitude, Fear of being bound to ynnead could turn out to be just as much of a driving force behind that quest as avoiding damnation within slaanesh.

We're currently an entirely optional extension of the eldar race tho...?
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 04:56

Quote :
We're currently an entirely optional extension of the eldar race tho...?

The entire faction will be rolled together. For troops for example, you'd have Dire Avengers, Wyches, Kabalite Warriors, Guardians, Troupes, Windriders etc. Mix and match to your heart's content, just like you can take Daemonettes, Nurglings, and Pink Horrors all in the same detachment. There's no longer a differentiation between the factions. Just like you can run an all Khorne army, you could run an all Dark Eldar army, but it would be entirely of your own volition.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 04:58

So if that does happen that's completely different from age of sigmar which the opposite of the line you were toting yesterday. And in my opinion a MASSIVE improvement over both Age of Sigmar and present.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:03

In 8th there will be smaller factions part of the overfaction like AoS but not to that extreme. Probably Kabalites, Wych Cults, Covens, and then one for each of the (remaining) major Craftworlds with their own formations. Black Guardians will be a special thing for instance. However there's gonna be like a CAD detachment or a decurion or something that lets you take the whole kit and caboodle as I described.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:04

Good discussion here. I just want to add I think one of the new models looks like maybe the return of Lady Malys, I hope.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:04

If that happened and every dataslate stayed the same I'd field more dark eldar competitively.

@BlackDeathstill we hashed that discussion out over in another thread. yvraine is a new character. My take on it is: New character so they can kill them off in a campaign while still providing us a model for "your guys" purposes. Killing Lady Malys off would be damaging to playerbase faith.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:09

Cool, thanks. That's great so my LM conversion will still be her and not have to change her name.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:16

Exactly, and thats probably why none of the real swank archons will get models. Vect maybe. Valossian Sythrac probably, Malys, Vraesque, and my lady Aestra are unlikely because they, like the empty marine legions, expressly exist to be your dudes. That unfortunately doesn't protect anyone from a mass off-screen death tho. It's not like that's a problem because 40k explicitly acknowledges the existence of multiple diverging timelines. It's how both 3.5's 13th Black Crusade's attack on Cadia and our current one can both be fully canon even though Eldrad didn't die on the deck of a talisman of vaul (black fortress) this time.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:26

Let's think about what we really want here:

We want the option of running pure dark elder without sacrificing competitiveness (I know, a pipe dream given our history but what D.E. player would say 'no' to this change?)

We want Dark Eldar to remain edgy, for their story to remain at least as deep as it is, and not have us beholden to our cousins. We, after all, are the True Kin, and we wouldn't want a soul thinking otherwise.

To a lesser extent I think a lot of Dark Eldar players like the premise of Commorragh and our location being there.

I honestly have faith that GW is going to keep Commorragh, even if they do make fluff more vague. Writers can simply say 'unspeakable horrors' and we'll know how bad it is but mommies won't. Problem solved. Which dovetails to our overall edginess. I could see a compromise in leaving the exact nature of the horrors up to the imagination. This is of course not my ideal, I would want GW to keep things explicit and stick to it's narrower market. After all, 40k is a complicated game and that factor alone makes it difficult for players younger than 15 to fully grasp the nuances of it (and yes, I am sure there are exceptions to that). I certainly still struggle to keep rules straight and I'm 22. While I would like some simplification, it's more accurate to say I prefer streamlining rules and I would happily put up with more complicated rules that worked better overall. I actually don't want 40k to be too simple because then it loses so much of it's nuance. Age of Sigmar is also getting progressively more complicated and nuanced too, check out the Sylvaneth Battletome (idk about the new Tzeentch one). As for the first bullet point, I'd like to remain optimistic without setting myself up for disappointment (is that even possible?). I can only imagine that it is hard to make an army strategically challenging to play without putting them at an overall disadvantage. That's the one thing I feel my fan codex fails to preserve. I feel like with all the straight buffs it changes the way the army plays (it favors aggressive melee more than the current dex) and makes it more competitive, at the expense of making it more straightforward to command. You aren't forced as a general to squeeze the best performance out of each model/unit and thus victories are that less rewarding. Man I can't write a short post to save my life.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Thu Jan 26 2017, 05:29

That's okay. Brevity is hard. Like AoS so long as we remember that individual unit dataslates are a minimum for stats and usrs I don't see why what you want isn't a large percentage of possible outcomes.


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