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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:27

AoS is outselling WHFB by a not insignificant amount these days - even in the prime days of WHFB. It's been a huge success fir them and reinvigorated a stale product line.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:53

I heard that, but I am bit reluctant to go that far. It is doing well. Even if part of the success is only due to models and not the game as I know people who just buy the models for painting or use in 8.5 or 9th age. But I call that success too. :-)

But lets not stray too far off topic. I wanted to say, that there is a lot of tension in W40K between those who hate the current state of things and rules and those who do like it like this. Some kind of midground in rules is desirable I believe and this goes hand in hand with the current books. We are starting to see more of the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", concerted efforts on all sides of the conflict. We are seeing an emerge of powerful figures on both sides. Primarchs, Avatars of gods. Emergence of leadership to break the current descent to decay. I believe that we are heading into times where the meaning of "In the grim darkness of far future, there is only war..." will get a new meaning. Only the chessboard needs to be set.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 19:42

I can even get on board with the death cult thing if they don't take away our need to feed on emotions. That's kinda the entire motivation, it's what adds the depth to our race rather than just BDSM space elfs who do it for the lulz. Also I like the fact it is edgy, 40k needs to be heavy metal. Without that it has no heart.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 20:06

If there were to be a codex merge, I too am worried we would be marginalized.

"Okay Terrence jet bikes are iconic for eldar, lets work on them."
"Capital idea Reginald, do we really need 3 different ones?"
"Hmm, probably not. Hey Lawrence which eldar jet bike sold best last year? Oh right then Windriders are in then, nix the other two"
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 21:57

Nah. Among the space vikings, space vampires, space romans, space inquisition, space nuns, space undead, space elves, etc there is not much Heavy Metal. Maybe there was, some 15 years ago, but its looooong gone. Stray boobs and musical instruments as weapons are not enuf for Heavy Metal. :-D
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 22:41

More stray boobs! Bring back the Juan Diaz Daemonettes!

...i should write a placard...

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 23:02

They did bring them back. I got mine in the mail like a month ago.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 23:53

I'm not seeing them anywhere.

You can get the Raging Heroes ones, though. Way cheaper than buying Diaz ones at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 00:17

So I guess rather than just random speculation I should set down some actual predictions. That way when the book finally launches I can compare and contrast and hopefully all my doomsaying will have been for naught:

- Commorragh is going to be destroyed, or so upturned it makes the Andy Chambers books read like a mild inconvenience.

- This will cause a large part of the surviving population if not everyone involved into a shotgun marriage with the Craftworlders and/or the clowns.

- Ynnead's stuff is going to cut our ties to Slaanesh entirely or at least cause our need to feed on souls to disappear. We might still go on raids and torture people and stuff, but it'll be for the lulz and not for actual necessity, because having character depth is bad.

- We will still be Webway based, but likely out of some common port shared with other Eldar like we're in college rooming with people we don't like.

- The Eldar overfaction melding of our factions like we saw in Death Masque will continue.

- Dark Eldar will have their edge filed down like a pair of safety scissors. Specifically, they will learn to play nice with other Eldar and maybe even other races in the fluff.

- Moving forward from this book into 8th, Dark Eldar will become basically a reskin of Craftworld Eldar. Because while you can't sell the fluff to kiddies, you can sell the models, because the models look hella tight. Everyone loves Dark Eldar models, everyone loves Craftworld rules, put the two together and what have you got? The next big seller. Remove all the fluff that makes their mommas weep and replace it with some generic contrived grimdark space elf nonsense and there you go.

- Something dead nuts retarded is going to be a major plot point in the book. I'm talking Star Wars prequels levels of bad. You will be able to see it from orbit. And we are going to have to live with it because it's central to the entire new plot being put forward.

- At least one of the 3 new models is going to have psychic powers so ridiculous the ITC will be like "hold on a minute..."

- Webway portals for everyone.

- Matt Ward somehow some way will be involved, and ironically will likely not be tied to the terrible plot point, but rather the clean up afterwords.

- I will read the entire book while on the toilet.

That last one btw is almost a guarantee.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 04:32

The AoS Aelfs really kicked the crap out of Slaanesh, 40k might follow suit and have Ynnead 'nom the prince of titties.

Speaking of "safe to show mom" models, I don't think it's difficult to revamp Slaanesh to be less tits oriented. Tzeentch has gone through a lot of change (lol) with horrors no longer being 'squigs with arms' and LoC's starting to wear clothes and go to the gym.

Slaanesh's image can be venomous animals like snakes, arachnids, octopi, multiple arms. The Sslyth is a good starting point for what a "8e Slaanesh" daemon can look like. Long drool-covered tongues too, lots of snakey tentacle shapes.

Seriously warhammer is dangerously lacking in sneks
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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 06:39

Quote :
So I guess rather than just random speculation I should set down some actual predictions. That way when the book finally launches I can compare and contrast and hopefully all my doomsaying will have been for naught:

- Commorragh is going to be destroyed, or so upturned it makes the Andy Chambers books read like a mild inconvenience.

- This will cause a large part of the surviving population if not everyone involved into a shotgun marriage with the Craftworlders and/or the clowns.

- Ynnead's stuff is going to cut our ties to Slaanesh entirely or at least cause our need to feed on souls to disappear. We might still go on raids and torture people and stuff, but it'll be for the lulz and not for actual necessity, because having character depth is bad.

- We will still be Webway based, but likely out of some common port shared with other Eldar like we're in college rooming with people we don't like.

- The Eldar overfaction melding of our factions like we saw in Death Masque will continue.

- Dark Eldar will have their edge filed down like a pair of safety scissors. Specifically, they will learn to play nice with other Eldar and maybe even other races in the fluff.

- Moving forward from this book into 8th, Dark Eldar will become basically a reskin of Craftworld Eldar. Because while you can't sell the fluff to kiddies, you can sell the models, because the models look hella tight. Everyone loves Dark Eldar models, everyone loves Craftworld rules, put the two together and what have you got? The next big seller. Remove all the fluff that makes their mommas weep and replace it with some generic contrived grimdark space elf nonsense and there you go.

- Something dead nuts retarded is going to be a major plot point in the book. I'm talking Star Wars prequels levels of bad. You will be able to see it from orbit. And we are going to have to live with it because it's central to the entire new plot being put forward.

- At least one of the 3 new models is going to have psychic powers so ridiculous the ITC will be like "hold on a minute..."

- Webway portals for everyone.

- Matt Ward somehow some way will be involved, and ironically will likely not be tied to the terrible plot point, but rather the clean up afterwords.

- I will read the entire book while on the toilet.

That last one btw is almost a guarantee.

Oh my heck this is hilarious. Thank you

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 07:25

If the dark city is destroyed, it'll most likely be parts that are Vects doing, Vect, is always 100 steps ahead and would realise that's something funky is going on and will be willing to sacrifice certain parts of the city.

Dark eldar Won't stop feeding off others, they've done it before the fall, they'll do it even if they are safe from Slaanesh.

Slaanesh though may be week and truly written out of Warhammer though. It makes no appearance in AOS and I believe has been replaced by the horned rat. I've not really read much of the AoS stuff, I got into fantasy for fantasy and a few months after I started collecting the end times hit and my fast cav dark elf army hasn't been used since. The sigmarines don't appeal to me and the sheer volume of them around puts me off the game itself.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 07:44

Yea. WFB Elves couldnt kick the daylight out of regular armies, so they went on and did some Götterdämmerung, brought on the controlled end of the world, made some new gods and slapped another letter at the beginning of their names so they sound all mystical now. :-D Nah. Its not that bad actually. :-)

@TeenageAngst - man, I dont recall you ever saying anything else than doomsaying. :-D Its not all that bad. Man up, the real world is not turning up to be as we would like it and noone is brooding over it. This is just a game. I dont like many things in the fluff and I like the grit as well, but if I have to choose between going extinct as Warhammer Players or letting go some of the real nastiness so kids can start playing and grow into gamers, then please - remove the titties. My 6yrs and 3yrs old boys come up to me and ask about the models and pictures in books... it is hard for me to explain to them some of the coven or slaanesh or nurgle stuff without just sending them off, saying its not for them, which has only one effect - it drives their curiosity even higher. I want to share my hobby with my kids if they like it, but some of this stuff is not even 18+. Its "18 and some serious testing for mental stability" stuff. And mind you I have never been one who lets my kids watch only ponies and butterflies. They have more skulls on t-shirts than some metal fans I know. :-D

So I dont think we should be worried about losing titties, have drugs renamed to enhancers and not having flayed skins hung all over the models. Its all in our heads. My Dark Eldar will still abuse drugs, have titties and use flayed skins for bedsheets if I like. No matter what the codex says. But for kids, they just do vitamins and I am OK with this.

And anyway... having to feed on souls is not a character depth. Its a diet. Being hedonistic was cool in 80s and 90s. Today with all the stuff on TV we are just one of many. DE cooperate with CWE just fine already on many occasions and thanks to Harlies (who are in the fluff for a looong time) they cooperate without even knowing it.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 12:32

aurynn wrote:

And anyway... having to feed on souls is not a character depth. Its a diet.

This.

What gives them the character depth is the fact that they are forced to commit these terrible atrocities in order to stave off an even worse fate for themselves, and it's never quite clear whether their enjoyment of all the torture and suchlike is genuine evilness or a sort of desperate front of denial, claiming that their actions are entirely of their own free will rather than being every bit as chained to a 'path' as their uptight cousins that they so love to mock.

That's character depth.

The only issue I see going forward is that the very best character depth in all the Eldar factions is rooted in their interaction with Slaanesh. If they end up AoSing Slaanesh in 40k, then we lose so much of what makes the Eldar nuanced.

I'm hoping against it TBH.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 13:34

Ynneadwraith wrote:
If they end up AoSing Slaanesh in 40k, then we lose so much of what makes the Eldar nuanced.
Do we? I think that we will just trade one dependence for another. We will have a god to protect us from our Femme Fatale, but gods forbid that anything happens to him. In this change there will be a great motivation to stand and fight against chaos, I have no doubt about that, and what is better motivation than survival. Ressurection of Ynnead does not mean that we can just kick back and eat popcorn. That transformation in itself should carry with it two things - uniting the Eldar in death and uniting them in purpose of life. Not in culture, not in means, but we will probably be snared as much as we are now. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 15:24

Yeah that's what I'm hoping for as a resolution from this.

The Eldar are quite literally birthing a Chaos God of Death. Does that sound like a plan that will end up working exactly as hoped?

It would be very fitting to the cyclical nature of Eldar history that they would simply trade the persecution of one god for another. First Khaine. Then Slaanesh. Now Ynnead.

It's like sending in a snake to kill the rat you sent to kill the spider (or however that nursery rhyme goes)...except on a cosmic scale with lovecraftian warp-entities.

It should never in a million years end well...

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 15:29

HokutoAndy wrote:
Speaking of "safe to show mom" models, I don't think it's difficult to revamp Slaanesh to be less tits oriented. Slaanesh's image can be venomous animals like snakes, arachnids, octopi, multiple arms.

That doesn't really fit with what Slaanesh is. Slaanesh is basically the chaos god of desire and excess. No one desires spiders or snakes, or octopus. That's why there were the titties. It was meant to represent something that is attractive, yet dangerous in that it was under the control of the chaos god who "desired" your soul, and who would never be satisfied, no matter how many souls she consumes.

Slaanesh could literally be almost exactly the same, just put bikini's on the sexy demons. We can have the depth and story appeal of Slaanesh without the nipples.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 15:43

The medusa from the cauldron of blood kit looks pretty sweet as a slaanesh daemon prince.

Snakey, desirable, attractive in a way.

Something along that line of modelling for slaanesh would be OK, lose the snake hair and replace with a beautiful sculpted female face and away you go.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 16:18

"Being hedonistic was cool in 80s and 90s"

I play this game because I can have BDSM space elfs fighting sexy Space Nuns in power armor while listening to Riggs and having Patrick Swayze on the TV. That over the top 80s hair metal nonsense is how I get my kicks, it's fun, it's goofy, it's edgy but in a tongue in cheek kinda way. I love this game for the same reason I love Duke 3D, and toning it down is IMO worse than any nerf they could give our codex.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 16:30

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
HokutoAndy wrote:
Speaking of "safe to show mom" models, I don't think it's difficult to revamp Slaanesh to be less tits oriented. Slaanesh's image can be venomous animals like snakes, arachnids, octopi, multiple arms.

That doesn't really fit with what Slaanesh is. Slaanesh is basically the chaos god of desire and excess. No one desires spiders or snakes, or octopus. That's why there were the titties. It was meant to represent something that is attractive, yet dangerous in that it was under the control of the chaos god who "desired" your soul, and who would never be satisfied, no matter how many souls she consumes.

Slaanesh could literally be almost exactly the same, just put bikini's on the sexy demons. We can have the depth and story appeal of Slaanesh without the nipples.

More stray boobs! Bring back the Juan Diaz Daemonettes!

Start the chant guys Wink

Absolutely agreed. Pretty simple way to make 40k more acceptable to the parents of kids walking into stores: put the daemonettes on the top shelf. Kids go into news-agents with far worse stuff above eye level...

Then they can go back to buying their 10yr old that model of a genetically enhanced brainwashed supersoldier lofting the severed head of a Bloodletter, glued together with solvents like a responsible adult Wink

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 17:10

Why do you guys think that nipples are a problem? Must be an American problem because I've never heard that here actually...

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 17:22

It is. GW is facing quite some problems regarding nipples and the sexual part of "excess" on US market. Thats why the changes are happening. As I said in another forum - these days noone gets offended at flayed skins, torture, pain and suffering. The things I see in TV these days make even me wince sometimes. And I am talking about series aired during afternoons when kids can watch. Violence is not a problem. Nuidity and sexuality is. Well... for US. Here somehow people tend to be more appaled by the rotting intestines bursting from open bellies and maggots crawling out of wounds... Nuidity is cool. :-D
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 17:23

Nipples are a problem because it's not child friendly, over sexualisation of woman etc etc blahblah not mummy friendly.

The game is meant to appeal to young children so it does make sense.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 17:43

I don't buy the child friendly argument, AT ALL. Most parents never even look at the models that much. If the last Grand Theft Auto V shipped 29,000,000 copies either parents are not scrutinizing what their kids are doing or else they don't care. 40K isn't going to be played by 8 year olds, it's a teenager + game. I just won't buy a ticket on that logic train.

The new models clearly show that overfactions is going to be the new way. What really worries me is where that will leave Tyranids, my main army. If other factions are all lumped together it eliminates faction weaknesses you have to learn to play around but leaves 'nids on the outside looking in. Dark Eldar will be fine. Even if it goes as far as AoS, you will still be able to play pure DE. Lizardmen were my fantasy army, and I haven't felt the need at all to buy more order models now that they were rolled into the same faction. They play fine by themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Tue Jan 24 2017, 17:59

I'm not sure I like our lore, infact I know I do not, it's far too comic book super evil edgy, even the word -dark- in our name sounds really lame to me, but, thats just like.. my opinion, man.

The only thing I don't like about being merged... is Eldar cheese players (My absolute least favourite kind of 40k hobbyist) getting to put their grubby hands on a few of our units, such as transports, I don't know why but it irks me. Don't touch my stuff!

I don't know, i'm not in favor of advancing the overall 40k lore generally, it's a rich setting already, it worries me they could do irrevocable damage to 40k's background. Plot advancement for the sake of it doesn't always go well. I won't speculate on if AoS has done well or not, but I can say, I don't know anyone, not one person who likes the new fluff over the old world.
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