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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 01:45

I'm not on board with the overfaction idea. Yes, that's basically what we have now with Battle Brothers and all, but there was always that semblance of difference between the factions. Moreover I'm worried that fluff-wise we're going to turn into space elf superfriends in 8th. Something like the destruction of Commorragh would be a good incentive for the surviving DE to join up with the Craftworlders in this new Ynnead cult, and as much as I like to think that the overall flavor of my army isn't going to change just because of a little story progression, I still can't shake the feeling we're gonna be forced into a shotgun marriage that compromises some of the best parts of the Dark Eldar lore :/
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 02:49

I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope the Dark Eldar retain their individual feel, but I also love the notion of an overfaction.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 03:28

@Jimsolo wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope the Dark Eldar retain their individual feel, but I also love the notion of an overfaction.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 04:17

I am not a huge fan of the idea of an overfaction (especially when the weaker Eldar types currently have all the best toys for said overfaction, meaning we'd be even further pushed into obscurity) but I think you are needlessly worrying; I don't feel like we are going to be absorbed into an overfaction for 8th edition
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 04:23

@John M wrote:
I am not a huge fan of the idea of an overfaction (especially when the weaker Eldar types currently have all the best toys for said overfaction, meaning we'd be even further pushed into obscurity) but I think you are needlessly worrying; I don't feel like we are going to be absorbed into an overfaction for 8th edition

I sincerely hope you're right. Plus, it's like I told my friend, they're releasing the Gangs of Commorragh game, well, there has to be a Commorragh for there to be a Gangs of Commorragh. Without the Dark City, you're just left with a game about a band of murderous warp-wandering elven hobos. And if I wanted that I'd play Spelljammer. Then again, that seems like the kind of trademark colossal brain-cramp GW would have when coordinating releases, which just adds to my anxiety.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 04:50

If there is overfaction, I imagine it will be like 4 full codices in one, four factions in the same book, four lores, etc.  It would be a big book (probably in hardcover and expensive but oh well).  It would be intended for and enable players to field pure Dark Eldar, pure Corsairs, pure Harliquins etc. should they wish. It would be a nice opportunity to undo some nerfs, balance our units internally (cough Wyches, cough Hellions), and give us more tools to handle all-comers, and make fielding our army feel differently in a meaningful way than fielding Craftworlds, beyond pfp.

I'd like for us to have more non-Coven assault options to distance our playstyle from Craftworlds, for example.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 05:44

I guarantee you corsairs would not make it into that book.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 06:11

They released Blood Bowl yet there is no Old World...

But I think we will be rolled into one BOOK. But I am of the opinion that due to possibility of inclusion of the likes of corsairs and other FW stuff, the 8th edition format will resemble AOS in actually fracturing into orders. Covens, Kabals, Cults, Mercs, separate Aspect shrines, CWE citizen levy. I am more afraid of being rolled into "Order" superfaction along with Empire. Or worse... being slapped with fish-bots...
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 07:07

I think being rolled into one book is definitely a possibility. But the unique lore aspects of the army (the psychic vampirism in lieu of psychic powers, slave raids, residence in a Webway nexus) aren't going anywere.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 07:30

@Jimsolo wrote:
I think being rolled into one book is definitely a possibility.  But the unique lore aspects of the army (the psychic vampirism in lieu of psychic powers, slave raids, residence in a Webway nexus) aren't going anywere.

I want to believe that, but I also know GW. Look what they did to Cadia and Fenris. Commorragh is next, and with it, a lot of our lore.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 09:39

They will not erase history. Lore will stay. Future will be different. But I am still betting on what I said before - dividing the galaxy into empires. For that to happen, Commoragh has to go or be irrevocably changed. It would also suggest that the Webway may go away as well, possibly succeeded by some Eldar/Empire project based on Emperor's ideas that would allow travel without reliance on Warp as whatever happens in close future will have serious repercussions to standard Warp Travel.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 09:53

I'm guessing we'll still have the 3 distinct factions (DE, CWE, Harlequins) each with their own datasheets and formations but there will be an overarching 'Grand Alliance' encompassing all three. Maybe there will be bonuses for picking units purely from one faction but you will have the ability to take them from any of the factions.

From a business and gaming perspective I don't really have a problem with that. It might even let me play a proper Freakshow list without jumping through 12 different hoops to get a legal army. From a fluff perspective I can sympathise with those who have problems with it but at least GW does seem to be engineering an in-game reason for this all to be happening (Ynnead etc).

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 10:29

My point...
The only thing that disturbs me about the grand alliance -aside allying, a thing i never do- is the fact that i feel somehow forced oon a road i don't like to walk:

I started playing like...5-6 years ago. I went no doubt on DE; loved the look,loved titties, loved everything from playstyle to their weapons.
Guess what? Don't like CWE, their fluff, their playstyle,their everything, as i don't like harlies,not particularly - reason why i didn't play nor buy them.

Facing a situation where the hugemegacodex gives the possibility to read Aeldari\elves\whatever as a single big thing, where you have - like a codex- strong and weak points- makes me fear a future as a taxi service with the occasional blasterborn unit, in an army that plays 80% units from the others (just because they're boosted batmans with no guts).

Hope it's comprehensible,falling asleep.

Post edited to remove swearing. Please do not use profanities - Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 10:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm guessing we'll still have the 3 distinct factions (DE, CWE, Harlequins) each with their own datasheets and formations but there will be an overarching 'Grand Alliance' encompassing all three. Maybe there will be bonuses for picking units purely from one faction but you will have the ability to take them from any of the factions.

From a business and gaming perspective I don't really have a problem with that. It might even let me play a proper Freakshow list without jumping through 12 different hoops to get a legal army. From a fluff perspective I can sympathise with those who have problems with it but at least GW does seem to be engineering an in-game reason for this all to be happening (Ynnead etc).

I think so too. It would not make sense to make this "one very big book" for many reasons.
A book of this size could become 900 pages long, forcing GW to cut down the amount of pages very heavily and given their emphasis on fluff and story based play, I doubt that very much. Moreover, GW has shown their interest in smaller factions getting their own book and this would go against that trend.

Seeing this from a business perspective, "faction showtime" is expensive and probably best used on their best selling armies. The best way to give smaller armies some highlighting is by making them accompany some other armies as well.

Following the trend of the Decurion playstyle, I heavily suspect each faction will be given its own Decurion in time but on top of that there will be a faction independant Decurion which is intended for superfriend lists.

Also, there is absolutely zero evidence for this really being a thing, this "rumour" is just based on wild speculation/(paranoia?) from Eldar players.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 12:45

I'd also stress, as a long time Fantasy player who is pretty sad that 8th got squatted (though philosophical about the need to do it) - is that these changes take time.

GW will have learnt a few things about the End Times.

1) Books that advance rather than just dance around the storyline sell like hotcakes. They discovered a LOT of 'sleeping' Fantasy players who came back and even if they didn't play that much more, they bought a ton more. In my GW all the books were sold out and maxed out on preorders.

2) They will apply this knowledge to 40k. If, as it seems, they want to advance the storyline, there will be a great deal of fanfare and it will be a protracted process. The End Times took around a year, afaik, and I'd expect this to be even greater for 40k.

3) Faction melding will probably happen at some point. If they move the story on, Eldar will become the the main opponent of Slaanesh and are likely to be merged. However, this is probably a long time away.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 12:56

Well i dont think they want to merge 3 codexes into one, nor do i think they need to. If you look at Fall of Cadia there is already Detachment that can draw from many sources. Thats it. THats all they need. Campaign books that do that sort of thing.

Each codex remain independant.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 14:24

@TeenageAngst wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I think being rolled into one book is definitely a possibility.  But the unique lore aspects of the army (the psychic vampirism in lieu of psychic powers, slave raids, residence in a Webway nexus) aren't going anywere.

I want to believe that, but I also know GW. Look what they did to Cadia and Fenris. Commorragh is next, and with it, a lot of our lore.

Messing up Cadia and Fenris didn't do anything to ruin the Imperial Guard or the Space Wolves, though. Both are still soldiers propping up a fascist galactic regime through military force. The former doing so with the unrecognized service of countless billions faceless grunts, the latter with gene-enhanced heraldric spaceknights with a viking feel and a wolf fetish.

I do think there may be some destruction or catastrophe to befall Commorragh, but I don't see the Dark Eldar being forced to live somewhere other than the Webway. (I, too, might be aggravated by that.) The Dark City might lost some realms, or lose some connectivity between realms (making Commorragh a loose collection of nation-states in the Webway rather than a single massive city), but I think at the end of the day the True Kin will stay where they are.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 15:02

I think the fluff will push CWE more and more toward the webway and less in the realspace, putting the Black Library and Commorragh in a more central place.
The design of the new characters being dark eldar-ish and less light side compared to classis CWE does not worry me about the destiny of DE as a faction.

Anyway we already have a cross-eldar factions with the corsairs.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 16:34

I can just see us losing our need to feed on pain, Commorragh getting wrecked, us living with the clowns or CWE in some joint Webway establishment, and basically turning into Saturday morning cartoon villains because now Ynnead is a thing.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 16:44

Yes, we might loose the need, but not necessarily the appetite - e.g. the PfP rule.

Living with Clowns or CWE... Various SM chapters dont live together save for some exceptions and even then they keep their separation in barracks, etc. It will be some time before we will drink beers at the Soul Wench pub together.

We already are Saturday morning cartoon villains. Speaking strictly fluff-wise, we are on the same train as Drow elves, Dark Elves and many of their variants.

Commoragh getting wrecked... depends on how. I like our "safe haven" being one of the most dangerous places in the galaxy, but... even it would profit from CWE business. :-D
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 16:46

@Dubh wrote:

GW will have learnt a few things about the End Times.

If they are doing it again then they clearly haven't learned anything at all.

End times was a failure, sigmar was a failure.

So sigmar isn't an utter failure anymore largely thanks to the general's handbook and giving away many rules for free, it has good growth (from rock bottom). It's nowhere near what warhammer fantasy was and it never will be what it used to be but hey if GW is happy with first flushing their sales down the toilet and then only looking at the growth from after hitting rock bottom then good luck to them.

EDIT: Eldar did feed on pain and other emotions prior to She who Thirsts was born as well.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 17:21

I don't think they're going to make them all into 1 book, but if they do, it will likely be GOOD for the Dark Eldar. Here is why:

GW has historically been fairly good at internal balance in a codex. While a unit or two may fall through the cracks or stand out,the vast majority are well balanced against each other. This means, if DE units were included in the same book as craftworld eldar, there is a very good possibility of DE units getting a pretty significant boost in power in order to effectively balance the codex internally.

So, for those of you who's main concern with a merging of the factions being that DE will get marginalized in such a case, bear in mind that it will also likely come with a revamping of units in which all units are rebalanced against one another, and given things to make them unique.

Think about it. Why buy an archon if you can buy an autarch instead? This means they'd need to give archons something to make them unique and different from an autarch, or re-price them or something. In 2 seperate codices, that may never happen. They might look at the archon, and just copy/paste him over without a second thought. But inside the SAME codex, I doubt they'd release a 60 point archon with crap options in the same book as a 65 point autarch with useful army wide buffs and good options.

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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 17:30

As long as the Webway exist, Commorragh will endure as well. And they can't have the Webway being being destroyed completely.

Commorragh is not a defined place, it is a parasitic node within the webway that draws nearby sattelite realms and merges with them. Sometimes, the borders between realms are blurred beyond recognition. Some places, like the spires in High-Commorragh have been part of Commorragh since he very beginning but for every lost area, new terretory will be created.

Commorragh is just as parasitic as its inhabitants. I think it was Path of the Incubus that destribed this very well.

So, what if most of Commorragh will be destroyed? Life goes on and those that can adapt will find new realms to build their bases and ports. Life and adapt or die.
Furthermore, size means nothing in Commorragh. We cannot measure its size due to it defying the notion of space as we know it.


You cannot eradicate parasites, disease or viruses. They always find ways to endure and we are no different in that regard.

Also, the DE will never go back. If a crack addict was to be purged of all the chemicals that made him physically addicted, the psychological addiction still remains. Especially if the addict in question does not know a life different to that in his past.

Edit: @BetrayTheWorld by all the hate GW is getting, you are right about this. It's a fun way to think that this could make DE more competitive.
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 17:46

If anything, I think Ynnead being a thing will make the Dark Eldar psychic vampirism even MORE of a thing.

I think that the Dark Eldar method of resurrection (using psychic vampirism to regenerate flesh and restore the soul) results in thousands of Dark Eldar being continually reborn and restored in a twisted kind of half-life, not unlike the Infinity Circuit and Wraith constructs of the Craftworlds. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this empowers Ynnead as much as the Infinity Circuit does. (Maybe even being the thing that gives him/her the edge against Slaanesh.) I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that Urien Rakarth is an Ynnead cultist, and has been for a very, very long time.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New models have me worried about the upcoming book.   Mon Jan 23 2017, 17:49

It always amazes me how people try to convince other people that AOS is a failure because it has not reached WFB prime sales. :-D Still does better than WFB in its last years. The game is not bad and solves a lot I hated about WFB. WFB was a grand thing, that has become very diseased in the end. And End Times? They were great. People bought out the books and a lot of the models within few days. What came after (fluffwise) was the "over the top" thing, however seeing how many people buy and play Sigmarines, I cannot argue with that strategy even if I do not like them.

W40K already has marines. It only needs to get rid of Slaanesh and some of the most "not-kids-friendly" stuff. I regret that, because I kinda like them. It is said that many of W40K players left for "more balanced games" (yeah, right...), so W40K is not in its prime anymore and needs a shakeup. It needs a narrative shakeup like End Times, so people can rediscover the attachment to the setting. Its starting to balance itself out through the myriads of options and impossibility of TAC lists. I believe it was @ammorowlyday who correctly said that its a balance through anarchy, but it is a self-balancing mechanism that is working. AOS is currently less focussed on the game rules and expands the list options, which leads to more model sales as people want to try out different concepts, but compared to W40K it still lacks the options as you cannot finetune the units to the W40K extent. Its rules are too simple for W40K too. Now imagine that you would not have to memorize dozens upon dozens of pages of rules and could focus on the listbuilding when suddenly your options would increase several times through the merging of "alignments" and fracturing of factions... For that, we need the fluff that the Gathering Storm is beginning to provide us. We are not facing End Times. We are facing a Gathering Storm!
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