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 Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?

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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:46

Oh I know it was disrespectful. I have a limit, I'm past it with this. I was nice up until betray's last post, then I lashed out (long day, saw it when I got home and it just ticked me off).

I know it wasn't aimed at me, it was the aloof attitude that annoyed me.

I already apologized to Betray via PM. I'm done with this now. As far as I am concerned the matter is settled. I'm leaving that post there because it should, I made a mistake and I'm going to leave it there.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 21:22

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Math, especially how we use it here is absolutely art

@amorrowlyday: I don't agree, and I think it's based on different ideas of the definition of art, so just to make sure we're on the same page there:

Art, by it's very nature, is subjective, meaning no right or wrong answers. Much of "good" or "bad" is simply opinion-based.

Math, on the other hand, is objective in nature, with definite "right" or "wrong" answers.

So if we agree on the subjective nature of art, and the objective nature of math, then math can never be art. That said, there ARE plenty of topics within tactics that are NOT math-driven(or where the math is so impossibly difficult to calculate that no one does it) where opinions matter, and due to these, I'd agree that listbuilding is an art. The math that drives it, however, is most certainly a science, and if you don't understand that science, your "art" in the form of your list is going to suffer.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 23:58

@BetrayTheWorld

This is why I love talking to analytical folks. You're one hundred percent accurate that this is a term dispute. I'm also fundamentally unwilling to accept that art is inherently subjective, or that mathematics is inherently objective. Furthermore I think such distinction is tangential to the actual issue at hand.

To begin with listbuilding is not science. Contemporary society has a nasty habit of aggrandizing science in such a way as to mis-state both it's process and purpose. Science is specifically and only a methodology for test and retest in order to establish evidenciary, or more broadly, empirical truth.

Mathematics and Aesthetics are both manifestations of logical, or more broadly, rational truths. The scientific study of the subjective is phenomenology and while Art can be studied through phenomenology it does not need to be. Art is the realm of aesthetics concerned with the physical instantiation of conscious thought or expression. There is objectively good and bad art, it simply isn't quantified, though it is quantified within a given work, in an immediately obvious way so most people are simply unqualified to objectively study and comment upon it.

To bring it back to our original discussion: When one abuses framework concepts in order to ring out access to what they personally want that is art. It's math absolutely, but just like how music is an artistic physical manifestation of explicit mathematics, unit building is as well. Listbuilding is simply arranging and modifying units to fit into a larger structure, arranging art into a larger frame doesn't transduce into something else, it's still art. When we read other peoples work, make iterative changes to our lists, or put our lists up for criticism is the only time the process becomes scientific.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Wed Jan 25 2017, 00:55

@amorrowlyday:

Ok, so we basically agree. You just disagree with my assertion that Math is inherently Objective while Art is inherently subjective, which we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.

I understand how someone could frame certain art as objectively good, but then you have famous artists like Jackson Pollock:





I don't know that I'd even consider some of his stuff art. With the critical reception of artists like this being so mixed by professional art critics, who's job is to tell us what art is good and what is bad, I hold this as proof that art is subjective. Further, the same critics might hold this next image to be "bad" art due to it doing nothing new or unique, and oversexuallizing women:



Personally, I like sexy women in sexy poses, so it's a plus for me. Which, again, leads us to art being subjective. Wink

But like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, most likely. And since we pretty much agree on the bigger issues anyhow, I'm OK with that. Very Happy

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Wed Jan 25 2017, 22:17

I love Raider gunboats. They look awesome on my shelf, and packed into boxes, and for use as crashed-vehicle-and-dead-occupants terrain for games.

*shrug*

It's sad; they really are one of the most aesthetically and conceptually pleasing units in the range, but do not perform enough for their cost. The only meta in which they thrive, as has been already mentioned, is where there's an abundance of flying monstrous creatures. Raiders are still great choices for the ever inspiring "5 Kabalites with no upgrades on a Raider with no upgrades" unit.

I know you're looking for something more personal, perhaps more flavorful, OP, but this is Dark Eldar; the merest pinch of flavor added at the cost of efficiency can easily cost you the game.

Almost every single time you want to add wargear or extra models to a unit in this codex, don't.

(this is why I stopped persisting with Games Workshop until we get an actual codex)

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:


You're either trying to win, or you're not and it doesn't matter.

In my opinion, there are 3 levels:

1. Super competitive = Advice: Play another army, or a combination utilizing good rule synergy.
2. Competitive = Advice: Play the best, most efficient models available to you/your faction.
3. Non-Competitive = Advice: You don't need advice to be non-competitive. If you're saying you're non-competitive, your list is probably already non-competitive. Mission accomplished.

This isn't just your opinion, my friend. I think a lot of people feel the same way, but lack the assertiveness to argue the case.

I, for one, have always appreciated that you challenge people and call them out on their BS. Not necessarily in this thread - my belief is that the OP and you simply had different ideas on what a tactics thread means - but in many others, including cases where I was the one talking nonsense.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Wed Jan 25 2017, 22:38

@hydranixx wrote:

I, for one, have always appreciated that you challenge people and call them out on their BS.

Thanks. Good to see you again! Very Happy

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Thu Jan 26 2017, 07:56

This thread has been locked due to the flaming and topic derailment, and a warning has been sent. Gob.
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