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 Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?

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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Sun Jan 22 2017, 23:25

I'm just spitballing lists (I have 3 10 man squads of kabalites, as well as 3 raiders w/dark lances), do you guys think 4 raiders (packed with 10 man squads w/splinter cannon and all packing splinter racks, night Shields and dark lances) and 4 venoms (all with splinter cannons, crewed by 2 units of blaster/splinter cannon trueborn, 1 unit of 5 kabalites w/blaster and 4 Incubi and my archon) enough for 2000pts?

I'm more a "boyz over toys sort of player" ; I'd prefer more units over super effective death stars that cripple me if I loose them.
These are backed up by 2 units of 6 reavers w/heatlances and cluster trips.

Do you guys think this is enough fire power for 2000pts? I'm new to DE so any advice would be much appreciated!
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Sun Jan 22 2017, 23:59

TBH its a little light on transports. I take around 8 at 1500 and it still seams a little light.

I would generally not recommend filling raiders, even with cheap warriors due to the cost. But if its working for you, than dont change it.
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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 00:07

Well its really just, of the 2 games I've played my 3 squads in raiders performed wonderfully, taking down 1-2 units each. Managed to pop a land raider turn one with the dark lances too! (Just luck I know) and splinter wracks seem better with more dudes. + 8pts a peice is nothing.
Would you suggest spamming a few more venoms then?
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 00:09

6 Raiders, 6 Venoms, load them all with 5 guys, then get like 4 units of Scourges for your dedicated anti-tank. Put lances on the Raiders and you should be good.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 00:12

Seeing as how the models you described are only about 1500 points worth, I'd say: No way. 2k points is out of your reach with those models.

Even if you could hit 2k points with those models, they'd all have to be super bloated with unnecessary and frivolous upgrades in order to hit that number, and the common advice with DE is that when it comes to upgrades, the fewer the better. There are a lot of upgrade traps with DE that are not efficient purchases.

Youre ideal point value with 4 raiders, 4 venoms, 16 reavers, an archon and 40 kabalites is probably about 1250-1300.

Here is a good, basic 1250 list you could use with those models(assuming you WANT to field an archon):

CAD 1
Archon w/Blaster & Haywire grenades 80
4x5 Kabalite Warriors w/Blaster in raiders w/dissie cannon 440
2x5 Kabalite Warriors w/Blaster in a dual cannon venom 240
3x3 Reavers w/Cluster Caltrops 189

CAD 2
Lhamean (Use a wych to stand in if you have one) 10
1x5 Kabalite Warriors w/Blaster in a dual cannon venom 120
1x5 Kabalite Warriors in a dual cannon venom 105
1x3 Reavers w/Cluster Caltrops 63

TOTAL: 1247

The only things unused in this list are your Incubi and a few kabalites. You're slightly light on darklight shots at 1250, so your reavers may end up having to lend a hand with anti-vehicle charges depending on what you face. I hope that helps, and I hope your friends aren't stuck on the 2k point value. Good luck!

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 00:17

Ah! I should probably clarify; this is stuff I am planning to get! Currently I have; 30 kabalites in raiders with dark lances. 6 reavers and an archon and a Homie.

I'm guessing 10 man kabalites are not good?

A shame....I really liked the amount of poison they put out :/

I'm kind of tempted to just say screw it and take 10 man squads anyway. And just take some extra units with venoms.

I'm guessing archon's are crapfests?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 00:29

The most efficient platform for splinter fire for the cost is a venom with 2 cannons. Squads of kabalites are good for unlocking a vehicle to take with them(hence why the 5 man squads), and situationally good for packing them with a single blaster(since they returned our ability to jink + have passengers shoot).

Archons aren't great at anything. They can't get better than AP3 in melee, and their best shooting weapon is a blaster. So they don't really have a role that justifies their cost, so most people don't even bother fielding a proper HQ, and just use a single 10 point Lhamean as their HQ choice. That gives them points to pay for another vehicle.

Then you just upgrade a kabalite to a sybarite and make him your warlord if you want a warlord trait.

My advice would be to wait until the new "gathering storm 2" stuff comes out before you decide what to buy. It may very well influence what is good and bad for DE.

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Ohnaka
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 00:54

Well! That's depressing. I think I'll stick iwrh my 10 man squads still. Archon, while bad is fluffy (pirate captain) so I might just take him anwyay. I have a decent starting base regardless. I'm not a super competitive player. (If I want to ensure I'll win, I'd play my admech (very experienced, been playing with them since they first came out; lost about 3 games total I belive but wanted soemthign completely different for a change so here I am with DE) and I really don't want to just spam venoms even if its the most effecrive option.

I'm taking part in a 250pts per month event at my local club so I pretty much have to buy and build stuff unfortunately XD.
I know I'm probably crippling myself not spamming venoms but that type of list just doesn't appeal to me, I want a mix of raiders and venoms I think.

I'm pretty much dead set on at least 3. 10 man squads in raiders with splinter cannons, dark lances, night shields and splinter wracks.

Is say 3 raiders with 10 dudes backed up by 6 venoms good for 2000pts or do I need MOAR?
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 01:33

Try different things and see how they feel to you. MSU is the current meta for DE as the others have been suggesting but find what works for you. I play against a friend who often brings Flying Monsteous Creatures so I run 10 Kabs in a raider with splinter racks. They're good if you get 'em within 12" of the enemy but they're almost guaranteed to die the next turn. So they don't get their points back but the psychological terror it inflicts on FMC is worth it. Venoms on the other hand, with 36" range can sit nice and comfy away from the frontline. 200pts full raider vs. 65 bare venom. Up to you.

Also it's become fairly popular to run a sybarite with haywire grenades. That way even if the raider goes down, the squad can still damage vehicles.

If you're not aiming for super competitive just try stuff out! Feel the power of the true kin!


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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 03:18

@Ohnaka wrote:
I think I'll stick iwrh my 10 man squads still. Archon, while bad is fluffy so I might just take him anwyay. I'm not a super competitive player. (If I want to ensure I'll win, I'd play my admech.

Fair enough, but this area of the forums is for tactics, where we give advice based on what works well, without regard for fluff or roleplaying concerns.

@Ohnaka wrote:
I'm pretty much dead set on at least 3. 10 man squads in raiders with splinter cannons, dark lances, night shields and splinter wracks.

Is say 3 raiders with 10 dudes backed up by 6 venoms good for 2000pts or do I need MOAR?

Basically, everything you say here is compounding bad ideas, so it's difficult to give you good tactical advice in response to a bunch of bad things I wouldn't recommend doing. Things I don't recommend, and why:

10 man squads(even in raiders): Their shooting isn't as good as can be had elsewhere, so what they bring to the table is unlocking a vehicle and a special weapon. I'm not saying don't buy some raiders. You just don't need to fill them all the way up.

Splinter Cannons on warriors in transports: You will almost always be moving around and jinking in order to get the best shot for your splinter rifles, which means you're almost always only going to get 4 shots out of a splinter cannon instead of 6, which isn't worth the investment when you get 2 from a rifle in rapid fire range.

Dark lances on raiders: These are sort of a take it or leave it thing. It's not terrible, but you may jink a lot to protect your warrior squads, which makes this 5 point upgrade sometimes a waste. I would put these on last, with any extra points left over, otherwise leaving them as dissintegrator cannons.

Night shields: Too expensive. When you calculate it all up, having nightshields on a basic raider with 5 kabalites in it makes the night shield 16% of the cost of the entire thing. So basically for every 6 you gave night shields, you could have just bought a whole other vehicle with a unit of warriors.

Splinter Racks: It's been shown that splinter racks, even in full raiders, aren't as effective at splinter fire as venoms, and again, they're too expensive to justify, especially if you don't have 10 warriors on board.

I'd plan to get anti-tank from other units, like ravagers or scourges, with alternative/supplementary options being putting blasters or haywire grenades on your warrior squads and/or using reavers.

The haywire grenades in every warrior squad that many people have been adopting isn't a bad idea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But as a final note, if you don't care about winning or getting advice that doesn't jive with your idea of how it should be, just do whatever you want and tell us all about your army over in the Kabal's of the Dark City section, where they don't care about tactics. It's your game. Play however is fun for you.

I'm a competitive, national-level tournament player, which is why I almost solely post in sections dedicated to strategy and tactics, and avoid roleplaying and fluff-related sections.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 03:33

I disagree with betray's justifications in that there are broader, mathematically derived, justifications that better reinforce those conclusions for a wider variety of weapon or upgrade use cases. For instance nightshields aren't bad because 6 of them is a whole other unit, they are bad because your return on investment is terrible. You're increasing your survivability by a mere 1.2%per point for nightshields.

That isn't to say their end conclusion is wrong though. Betray is absolutely right in that regard. They are just also right because of the math that flows behind every action and choice in this game.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 07:33

Alright well then I see. This probably should have gone in General discussion; my mistake Smile. Sorry to have torubled you Guys!
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 16:23

Don't worry, you should have posted in the Army Lists section. It's not only for super optimum math-hammered lists Smile

And even as Betray said its up to you how competitive you want your list to be, and that depends on your local meta as well.

10 Warriors in a Raider with just Splinter Racks is 150pts, 20pts more than 2 Venoms (with double Splinter Cannons). Only you can say whether the (general consensus) that the venoms are better and that taking full splinter rack raiders will have a drop in your army strength is something that you can deal with.

The main thing with splinter rack filled raiders is that you have to get within 12" to be good and get 20 splinter shots twin-linked, while the venoms can get 24 shots from 36" away. Most (not all) people normally put warriors in venoms (with blaster and/or haywire grenades to give optional anti tank) and leave the anti tank to ravagers (a 3 dark lance ravager is only 5pts more than 2 raiders with dark lances and is av11) and Scourges (with either Heat Lances or Haywire Blasters).

To help it might be worth prefacing your post with the type of list you want, eg. super competitive, local RT, competitive friends, or beer & pretzel nights, and the type of list you will be playing against eg. Scatter Bike, Warp Spiders & Wraithknight Eldar, Riptide Wing & Stormsurge Tau, War Convocation, Demi Companies on the top end vs Starter Box type armies on the other end.

Unless you're playing super competitive I doubt having one or two splinter rack raider squads will kill you, and if you're in a less competitive environment you could get away with three such units if you stick to the competitive units for the rest of your list.

In reply to your initial question about firepower I would say a couple more venoms, at least one unit of scourges, a couple of ravagers and if you have it a razorwing would be nice additions. Definitely stick with your philosophy of more boys rather than toys and keep upgrades to a minimum.

Welcome to the Dark Kin !!

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:07

@Rathstar wrote:

To help it might be worth prefacing your post with the type of list you want, eg. super competitive, local RT, competitive friends, or beer & pretzel nights

I disagree with this. If you're just trying to make a list for beer & pretzel nights(completely non-competitive), then you don't need tactical advice.

You're either trying to win, or you're not and it doesn't matter.

In my opinion, there are 3 levels:

1. Super competitive = Advice: Play another army, or a combination utilizing good rule synergy.
2. Competitive = Advice: Play the best, most efficient models available to you/your faction.
3. Non-Competitive = Advice: You don't need advice to be non-competitive. If you're saying you're non-competitive, your list is probably already non-competitive. Mission accomplished.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 18:39

I'll respect that opinion but I do not agree that being non competitive means you don't need ANY advice; how are you to improve without at least some guidance.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 19:13

Improve what? Your chance of winning? That only matters in competitions.

I apologize if I come off as indignant. I'm not trying to drive you away. I try to be helpful when people are seeking actual help. It is just extremely frustrating when you spend a bunch of time researching and compiling lists for people in order to best use their models when they ask for tactical advice, only to have them say, "Meh, I'm not really that competitive, so I'm just going to do all the non-competitive stuff I was already doing."

Then, I'm just sitting here like, "Well WTF were you here asking for advice for?!?! Don't waste my time if you don't care about winning or improving the effectiveness of your game."

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Mon Jan 23 2017, 19:52

I'm sorry to have wasted your time, hopefully won't happen again. Thank you so much for the help, and I am sorry that I didn't make my intentions clear from the start.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 03:08

Betray you alright dude? Anything we can do?

I've always viewed tactics as making the best with what you had. So although the title may be misconstrued and better suited over in the Army list section, is 4 enough and what tactically would he gain from more? If he doesn't want more or can't run more, then tactically on the battlefield what's his best option?

Ohnaka have you read the archived tactica for using/abusing the rules for raiders? Tank shocking, castleing, etc?

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 07:45

Gunboats sadly aren't as great as they once were, I would actually suggest only taking the two raiders and maxing venom squads. Msu is the best effective use for DE wether it's competitive or casual. Those raiders just become high priority namely due to having more points spent into them. Raiders squads do have used though for taking out FMC because of the reroll to hit. Venoms are just more reliable for ground targets though, they can stay out of range and pore the fire on.

Archons are meh, if he's going with incubi, take a succubus instead with armour of misery and Glaive, her added ap2 to the unit gives you solid unit though any focused fire will bring them down
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 08:39

She'd be adding AP2 to a unit that is already overflowing with AP2!

I don't put IC's in incubi squads but then that's probably because I only even consider using them MSU with klaivex.

She doesn't bring them anything that they either don't have access to already, or can't with better perks elsewhere. I think the best thing they can have is covens Haemonculus with the sump and maybe a flesh gauntlet or scissorhands. Fearless AND speeds up their PFP.

Staying totally vanilla: Archon with shadowfield and haywire grenade.

your 100% on point about gunboats tho.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 10:32

I mean the succubus is a better Cc option than an archon, and since the incubi are being used as a bodyguard for a Oc she's a better choice if Cc is where he's intending to get to.
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 15:59

@Barrywise wrote:
1. Betray you alright dude? Anything we can do?

2. I've always viewed tactics as making the best with what you had.

1. I'm fine. Just tired of people who come to a tactics advice section to ask if their idea is a good one, then when they're told it's not, they say they're going to do it anyway. That's a massive waste of other people's time, and there is a big subset of people that do it(Maybe 10% of people). I'd just like to send a message to them that this is rude and inconsiderate, and that if you aren't ACTUALLY interested in hearing if your idea isn't good, you probably shouldn't ask. Some people are just looking for confirmation that their ideas are awesome, which I can understand. But those people should post in a thread where subjectivity and feel-good niceties are the order of the day, rather than hard mathematical facts. Threads like the Kabals of the Dark City thread, where pretty much everyone gets a pat on the back. I'm not downing these threads, but rather pointing out that when you don't actually care about how well something works, there are more appropriate areas to get what they're looking for.

2. Yes, making the best with what you have is often what tactics is about. That's why I literally took 15 minutes out of my day to compile the list of models he said, check points values, and make him a list that would use almost all the models he had in the most efficient way possible, then post here with a full explanation as to what points value he should ideally play at with those models.

Then he was like, "Meh, I'm just gonna do tactically bad stuff. Anyone else have any OTHER advice?" Like he was seeking a second opinion that would, again, somehow validate his ideas as good ones. The problem with that is that he didn't have any valid tactical argument for sticking with what he was doing. He just said, "Meh, I'm not competitive." Which is a copout. If you're not competitive(ie, don't care about winning or losing), you wouldn't be on a thread asking about tactics, unless you're just looking for a pat on the back, which, again, could be better found in a thread where answers are more subjective. When it comes to the vast majority of tactics and list ideas, certain things are simply OBJECTIVELY better than others.

So if someone is incapable of accepting objective truth, a tactics thread is quite simply not for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 16:43

wow man thanks. I even apologized, and admitted I made a mistake about making the thread but your coming off as an absolute +Bad-word redacted+.

This specifically:

"So if someone is incapable of accepting objective truth, a tactics thread is quite simply not for them."

Oh and this:

"He was like, "Meh, I'm just gonna do tactically bad stuff. Anyone else have any OTHER advice?""

F**K RIGHT OFF. Your projecting your opinions onto me now, I AM NEW TO THIS ARMY! OF COURSE I WANT SOME ADVICE? EVEN ON MY SUB OPTIMAL LISTS which at least I now know are sub optimal.

Anyway have a nice life. I'll avoid this section from now on, special club is all yours. I hope you enjoy it. Unwatching Thread.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 17:20

Don't get so emotional. I told you earlier, this isn't directed solely at you, but at everyone who does what you did(about 10% of people).

If you don't think wasting someone else's time with asking for advice you have no intention of taking is rude, I don't know what to tell you. Why initiate a series of interactions that causes someone else to invest their time in you if you have no intention of being influenced by that interaction? The only logical answer is that you were seeking approval or a pat on the back, for which this is the worst area to do so. Almost ANY tactic gets picked apart here. That's it. I'm not being emotional here. I'm being logical. If you, or anyone else wants a pat on the back, look elsewhere. There are plenty of sections in which subjectivity, and therefore politeness, rules the day. Here, objective truth exists. Math is not art.

If you WANT tactical advice(ie, intend to change your behavior to adopt the advice of someone more experienced than you), then by all means, post here. Myself and many others will be all too happy to donate our time and effort to help you for free. All I've essentially been saying is, don't disrespect the fact that we're here, donating our time to help you for free by asking for advice if you don't really want the help anyhow. Some of us put a considerable amount of time into helping people, so if I put 15-30 minutes into helping someone to have them be like, "Meh, whatevs. I thought my idea was good.", I'm going to be offended by that. I could have worked and made $50 USD in that 30 minutes instead of trying to help some dude on the internet for free.

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PostSubject: Re: Is 4 raiders and 4 venoms enough at 2000pts?    Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:28

I concur with betray on the larger point. Minutiae your dead wrong. Math, especially how we use it here is absolutely art, It's OP's lack of recognition of that artistry that is so repugnant.

@Ohnaka And I'm tagging you explicitly to bring you back to read this: Your reactive behaviour has been appalling. You should have unfollowed this thread 10 responses earlier. To unfollow it there with your additional comments is quite literally worlds more disrespectful than anything else that's happened in this thread. If you're unable to see that while the comment that triggered you is about you it wasn't aimed at you but instead at barrywise, and if you are that thin skinned you aren't going to last long. Not on this forum, and not in this faction.
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