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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Thu Feb 09 2017, 22:14

Skulnbonz wrote:
TeenageAngst wrote:
If you're not running scatbikes in a Ynnadi list you better be one clever son of a b**** or enjoy hanging around the bottom tables.
Ha!
I really really want to disagree with you, but in this case, it really isn't possible to.
Not in a ynnadi list at least.

I doubt I will run scatbikes in my ynnari list, unless it's just the minimum 2 troop slots to unlock the meta formation(and that is questionable). The way the meta-formation is put together, it has actually just made the strategy I already tended to use most of the time easier to pull off.

I'll probably run a ynarri meta-formation alongside an Eldar CAD for obsec in the ITC format. Meta-formations still take up 2 of your 3 detachment slots, right?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Thu Feb 09 2017, 22:15

Nope. Just 1.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Thu Feb 09 2017, 22:54

Quote :

I really really want to disagree with you, but in this case, it really isn't possible to.
Not in a ynnadi list at least.

I may be an ass but I'm rarely wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 02:34

My current plan is not to take any CWE. Harlies fill most gaps DE have (psyker support, actual damage output), and will greatly buff DE survivability. It will be interesting to see what we can dream up now that we can buff squads. I, for one, remember the era of 5th Ed Beastpack.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:03

With the exception of the Shadowseer, Harlequins are a solution in search of a problem.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:06

Power gloves are pretty sick anti super heavy vehicle.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:11

Most armies don't really have a lack of superheavy vehicle destroyers, DE being an exception. Warp Hunters, Wraithknights, Vaul's Wrath, Wraithguard, and even Fire Dragons are all perfectly decent answers without having to worry about somehow getting a squad of T3 5+ guys into charge distance. Plus, clowns are weird in that they get worse the less powerful their opponent is. A squad of Guardsmen is legitimately dangerous if the clowns don't kill them all in the first round because they only have a 5+ save regardless of what's swinging at them.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:29

That's a very valid point about the reverse efficacy of Troupes. I just don't think it need weigh too heavily in estimation. To begin with, the only one of those examples that more or less matches caress harlequins for cost, a very relevant metric, are fire dragons. How fire dragons go about taking down a SHV is radically different to the degree where I would estimate that they should be regarded as wildly different tools.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:33

If you want to run clowns effectively you pretty much need to run a clownstar. Running small units of them is not cost efficient as they're so expensive, their wargear is so expensive, they need to be in close combat, and they're so fragile. Running one large unit means there's only one unit you need to worry about protecting, and the best way to run that is with Corsairs, not Ynnari.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 04:44

I don't play Doom of Mymaera version 1 so I can't do that, There aren't any Harlequins options in the 2015 edition.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 05:03

No lemme explain.

So the problem with Troupes is they are expensive, need to get close to do work, have no reliable delivery mechanism, they can't take a hit, and they have no real defense against shooting. Their strengths are they are never slowed by terrain, can hit like a truck at initiative insane, and can hit & run out of bad situations.

Starting from this premise we need to work on surviveability to get into close combat first. Protecting 1 unit is easier than a lot of them, and since we don't want to spam expensive units, we run one big clown squad. 12 clowns with caresses. Now we need some protection, like a Shadowseer. Veil of Tears will stop any and all dangerous long range attacks, so that's how we move forward. Also take the Mask of Secrets for obvious reasons. We also need something that will boostie our save in case we do get shot at up close. Since moving through cover is a non-issue for clowns, we will assume we will be treking through terrain constantly. Inriam's Spectre conferring shrouding will boost this up to a 2+ in ruins, nice. This formation, the Cast of Players, also grants Crusader.

So from here we need to get a move on across the board, as foot slogging is slow. The primaris of the Corsairs psychic table is a power that gives you an automatic 6 on every D6 rolled in any form of movement, or a 3 on any D3. So runs, charges, hit & runs, etc would all be max range automatically. That's what we need. Grab a Corsairs' detachment with a Prince, a Void Dreamer, and a unit of Cloud Dancers with splinter cannons to make it legal. Max the psyker levels on both characters their max, give them both a Shadowfield, and give the Prince a bike. You now are immune to pinning due to the bike and have 2 units with a 2++ save. Use them in your clown unit on your flanks to protect from dangerous weapons and have them spearhead charges. You are also now able to move at max distance all the time so long as that power goes off, nice. A guaranteed 12" threat range for charges is nasty on a unit this physically large. Your Prince is also a L1 psyker with access to the Divination table. Roll on that for Prescience, which lets you reroll to hit in close combat. That means you can fish for even more 6s on your caresses.

So now you have a genuine wrecking ball that has no trouble closing distances and can only be effectively shot at from within its own threat radius. We need to take this to the next level. Put in an Eldar CAD and put a Jetseer in there. Roll for Fortune, if you get it, you now have a 2++ rerollable. If you don't you at least have Guide which you can use on something else. Now's when you also have some other flexibility. Baharoth is nice if you want to use that Farseer to roll on Gate of Infinity instead. You could use another Farseer and almost guarantee you get Fortune or Invisibility. Jain Zar isn't a bad option either. Eldrad would even work well. This unit will eat enemy psychic powers for breakfast with L3 psykers and adamantium, it's fearless, it has hit & run, it can charge anything within 12", it can survive in close combat thanks to multiple 2++ saves, it can't be shot. Your only enemy is yourself, as positioning this monstrosity requires a *lot* of practice, but once you have it down it will be a beast that even Tripartite Lances will crumble to in 1 round.

And that's how you run clowns.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 05:13

Oh okay we're on the EXACT same page: That's precisely what Intend to do though I had planned on precognition on the void dreamer/prince rather than the jetseer. I'm going to use a couple other IC's as well but the application is identical.

I don't do that now because it's awkwardly priced for the amount of detachments it takes. Now that that is just going to be 2 detachments I can run that and more.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 05:17

The Coid Dreamer also has powers that can enhance their movement (although in the ITC only one works in mixed faction squads).
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:35

The ITC FAQ is written by rubes.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 15:36

Lol. Tell us how you really feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 16:09

Rolling Eyes Okay.

The ITC is potentially the most commonly used FAQ, at least in America, for adjudicating events. So taking its limitations into account when talking about strategy and tactics seems fairly reasonable.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 16:43

TeenageAngst wrote:
No lemme explain....
And that's how you run clowns.

I agree with a lot of it. HOWEVER, that's a ton of moving parts to make work. Point for point they just aren't that good. Played an ITC practice game with them again last night and I remember whyI don't run them often. They just can't make a save at all (although the voidweaver tax did make 10 4++s on one turn). I still wound up tieing the game, but that was after playing hide and seek after getting really close to being tabled in turn 3. Heck one troupe was swept in CC by unit of Striking Scorpions, which point for point, are more survivable and have more durability. If you don't roll enough 6s, the caresses are a suckers bet.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 16:48

mattblowers wrote:
TeenageAngst wrote:
No lemme explain....
And that's how you run clowns.

I agree with a lot of it. HOWEVER, that's a ton of moving parts to make work. Point for point they just aren't that good. Played an ITC practice game with them again last night and I remember whyI don't run them often. They just can't make a save at all (although the voidweaver tax did make 10 4++s on one turn). I still wound up tieing the game, but that was after playing hide and seek after getting really close to being tabled in turn 3. Heck one troupe was swept in CC by unit of Striking Scorpions, which point for point, are more survivable and have more durability. If you don't roll enough 6s, the caresses are a suckers bet.
Given the Death Star TeenageAngst is trying to build up there, the Cast of Players formation is without doubt the best choice for the Harlies side of the equation, no taxes since you only want Inriams Spectre, a Troupe and the Shadowseer.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 19:17

Quote :
The ITC is potentially the most commonly used FAQ, at least in America, for adjudicating events. So taking its limitations into account when talking about strategy and tactics seems fairly reasonable

You can plan around it all you want, that doesn't change the fact it was written by rubes. All GW supplements are allowed EXCEPT DEATH FROM THE SKIES F*** FLYERS SPECIFICALLY. All psychic power buffs can affect battle brothers EXCEPT THAT ONE CORSAIRS POWER BECAUSE OH MY GOD. D-weapons are nerfed EXCEPT IN CLOSE COMBAT THEN THEY'RE PERFECTLY FINE. 3 formation/detachment limit and only 2 of the same kind can be taken UNLESS YOU'RE IN A DECURION THEN GO HOG WILD.

This is why I prefer NOVA format.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 19:28

Only 2 of a given formation limit still applies within a decurion. but those formations do not count against your 3 detachment limit you're correct there.

That said I take your point.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 21:56

I also think the ITC is a bit heavy handed on changing rules. I think they do a good job of clearing up grey areas, but I disagree with almost every rule change they vote on.

I also don't think rules should be changed by popular vote, as a general principal. If a rule needs changed, it should be a decision agreed to by the social elite within a given organization, as our founding fathers intended it, haha.

But seriously, I'd rather have a small council of like 5 very good, competitive players who represented most factions across the spectrum, who debated any potential rules changes, and allowed the public to participate in the debate, but ultimately voted just between the 5 of them. Public votes generally invite uninformed voters who never bothered to read the debate, and just went straight to the multiple choice question about changing the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:04

The last thing I want is Nick Nanavati and Andrew Gonyo calling the shots for the entire league but there does need to be improvements made.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:15

Voting of the "elite" on an issue that should bring balance... what a funny idea... I dont think this ever worked in even a single case in history. :-D
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Fri Feb 10 2017, 22:45

aurynn wrote:
Voting of the "elite" on an issue that should bring balance... what a funny idea... I dont think this ever worked in even a single case in history. :-D

Of course it has. See every balanced game that didn't poll public opinion before releasing rules. Game developers often work in small groups to develop rulesets. I think these types of groups, particularly where each group of factions is equally represented by a player who solely plays those factions is more capable of creating balance than raw public opinion. If you really want to have public opinion be a major factor, have the public register what their main army is, then get to vote for their main faction's representative on the council.

What this does is it allows equal representation of DE, Tyranid, Necron, Ork, and IG perspective to that of the Marine perspective, instead of having half the votes coming from the players of basically 1 faction.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Sat Feb 11 2017, 00:57

Uh, not sure why people are talking about the clowns not having viable delivery mechanism. We have raiders now for that. 55 pts for 3HP that jink, then 5 clowns with 2 Carresses for 111 pts.

Less than 10 marines with special weapons in a drop pod, and more damage output. With the new Ynnari PfD rule (or w/e its called), if the unit gets destroyed (twice, once for the transport, once for the clowns themselves) we get to boost two other units up into the enemies face.

I am very happy with these new rules to help buff my DE. Assuming we can still take CADs for that sweet sweet ObSec.
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