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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 19:37

Yea... no... we are "ressurecters" (I dont know if this is a word really) and as for Iyanden - they are golem makers. We do not create undead (necron). :-)
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 19:44

Wraith constructs are not golems, are literally the souls of the dead brought back to life to fight in a body made of (Wraith)bones. If that's not necromancy I don't know what it is.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 19:49

Wraithbone is construction technology not unlike crystal growth. Its not magic. Not necromancy. Or do you think craftworlds themselves are undead ships?
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 19:55

Of sorts, since they're fuelled by the souls of the dead in the infinity circuit.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:25

Wait, so you say this:

@aurynn wrote:
Yea... no... we are "ressurecters" (I dont know if this is a word really) and as for Iyanden - they are golem makers. We do not create undead (necron). :-)

Then you go on to say this?

@aurynn wrote:
Wraithbone is construction technology not unlike crystal growth. Its not magic. Not necromancy. Or do you think craftworlds themselves are undead ships?

Then the Necron's aren't necromancers anymore than the Eldar.

And as the "wraithbone constructs" are given life through Eldar souls I would say yes it is necromancy as it possessing the construct with the dead. They are not being controlled by an AI but the souls of the dead. And yes the Craftworld are possessed by the dead.

Edit:

7th Edition Craftworld Eldar:
A Flame in the Dark:
"Woven within the avenues and shining domes of every craftworld is a lingering spirit realm. Generations of dead Eldar dwell within the crystalline matrix of the infinity circuit, where their souls are held between this world and the next."

"Through necessity, each craftworld has also become a vast interstellar fortress. Aspect Warrior shrines, armadas of grav-craft and spirit-driven constructs all wait for the time when the craftworld must go to war."

"Thus the Eldar live on even after death as ghostly echoes trapped in the shadowy limbo of the infinity circuit."

Wraithhost:
"On the eve of battle, Spiritseers coax the souls of dead heroes from the infinity circuit into a spirit stone, which is then interred in the dormant shell of a ghost warrior. Trapped between life and death, a shade bound within such a wraithbone body sees the world as a muted realm of psychic echoes and their enemies as dark spectres dancing in firelight."

Iyanden:
"The spirits of those killed by the Tyranids were preserved within Iyanden’s infinity circuit, and it is from this well of souls the craftworld replenishes its decimated ranks."


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:54; edited 4 times in total
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 20:29

Both are as bad as each other. That's part of the irony behind Eldar Wraith ubits, and why they're so angsty about using them. They're using the exact same process of animating their dead as war machines as their ancient enemy, the enemy they were created to destroy.

Technological or magical, they're both animating the dead. That's the very definition of necromancy.

As for the Dark Eldar, they're probably less necromantic than the craftworlders, given that they don't use the souls of the dead to power everything they do. Still pretty ropey though, what with the vampiric regeneration process they go through...

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 21:23

It has been noted in the DE codex fluff that DE helped save Iyanden specifically because the DE are amused by Iyanden's "necromantic practices".
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 22:00

Yeah i love that piece of fluff Smile fits the DE attitude perfectly.

'We only saved you because we think it's funny see how angsty you get raising your dead'.

Brilliant Smile

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 22:16

Well there is a great difference for me. Reviving a living body around its own soul is just very advanced healing. Result is a living being with its own soul.
Imbuing a construct with soul for a time is no different than loading that AI you mention. Putting souls above the AI may be just our wishful thinking. Its like putting a pilot into a vehicle, only more esoteric. Result is still controlled construct. Not animating the dead. Anima - the soul. Animating - putting souls into something. But not in the dead...
Where necron... they are soulless beings of living matter (living metal is still living) - as are undead. Properly they should not get reANIMAted though. :-) But as with those "necromantic practices" - probably just incorrect word use with good intentions.

But I dont want this to be a debate on what is necromancy. :-) I just wanted to explain that I personally do not consider what Eldar do to be a necromancy. Its perfectly OK for everyone to find their meaning in the game fluff.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Tue Jan 24 2017, 23:19

That's not really fair tho aurynn. If we take soul to mean personal instantiation in the warp, then necrontyr never had souls to begin with. It's one of their founding principles in the current lore about the war in heaven (Us v Ctan one not Kaines crap)

Anyway the whole issue is based off a miscommunication: the original mention of reanimation protocals was talking about reusing the OLD rules, nothing says such a new rule would need to have the same name. Dark angels, and the angels of death supplement gave a few of our old 5th rules to space marines under new names so there is precedent for it.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 00:03

If you don't consider it necromancy, that's fine. But in-universe, it is considered necromancy.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 00:25

@ammorowlyday - Of course. That is the very reason why I say its open to everybody's interpretation.

It is exceedingly difficult these days to know whats what. For example - Necromancy was originally divination through dead. Dead bodies that is. Not souls. That is what Eldar dont do. But its not creating undead or reanimating anything. We extended the meaning. So... I chose to see Necron as the Necromancers. And CWE as... well... Animancers... thats a nice word there. :-D as CWE actually commune with the souls - the anima. Necromancy is given too broad definition that overreaches the word's meaning and thats why I am reluctant to use it in connection with Eldar.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 00:33

Okay that seems reasonable enough.

and I'd appreciate everybody considering this following comment as the new jumping point for on topic so we don't continue beating the dead horse.


My comment: Harlie caress' have old rending what is old RP and how would it interact with the things we already have?
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Rhivan
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 01:36

Well I for one love the idea of being able to reanimate my Eldar and use Necromancy. If I can reanimate my men I will gladly use the Avatar of Ynnead as my HQ... granted I'd want to make him worthy of being the Avatar of the God of Death. (Good thing converting is a thing)

Otherwise Yvraine's (Malys) Model I like overall minus the headress as others have stated, I'm thinking Liliths head may be a nice alternative or some other mini website. But that head is terrible *shudder*

The Visarch though... I love his model. I love how armored he feels. I love the heavily armored aesthetic the Incubi have and he fits right in there with them. (If I start running the Avatar of Ynnead I may just use this guys Torso for it.)

I'm really excited for the rules for these guys, we've speculated on the Avatar but what do we think Yvraine and the Visarch will have?
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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 05:33

Going on a bit of a tangent in the necromancy discussion, I've heard that the 30k mechanicus list was described as "Vampire counts in space" as the tech priests are functionally immortal with their artificial bodies but also have legions of mindless tech-thralls that are the barest scraps of brain and organs covered in metal.

There's also a nice duality between Craftworlder and Dark with the former viewing their 'self' as soul that can be transferred into a stone (and then stuck in a tank, or a sword, or an indestructible giant) while the latter's sense of 'self' is bound to flesh, even if they grotesquely transform their flesh or regenerate from a severed finger it's still that original flesh.

On spirit stones, has there been any new fluff about them? There's the 'tears of isha' myth, and they're only found within the fallen eldar homeworlds. I wonder if this Ynnead triumvate advancing of the storyline will shed new light into what spirit stones really are.

It could be something creepy like "crystalized remains of old empire eldar devoured by slaanesh", and would kind of tie into Dark Eldar tech of keeping their soul temporarily bound to their flesh when dead so they have time to resurrect in a remaining bit of flesh.

Quote :
what do we think Yvraine and the Visarch will have

Yvraine has a grynix, which is a rogue trader era psychic power enhancing familiar, so definitely some kind of super psyker. Probably lots of fate manipulation, illusions, maybe even soul sucking to give Ynnead a darker edge.

Visarch is definitely a melee beatstick, looks physically bigger than most Eldar or even space marines. I'd start with phoenix lord stats as a minimum.


Last edited by HokutoAndy on Wed Jan 25 2017, 05:38; edited 1 time in total
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 05:37

I don't know if I'm willing to accept that. Our collection of experiences, at our most basic that is what dark eldar vampiricism is about, is absolutely about the soul, it's probably just that reconstitution of the flesh pulls the soul back from the warp.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 09:44

Again meandering off topic, but until we get some new news we might as well Wink

In one of the Path novels it's revealed that Spirit Stones are indeed the crystalised remains of old eldar spirits that died during the Fall, which rise and dance on the Crone Worlds before collapsing into Spirit Stones.

What's odd about that is that the eldar myths are pretty specific in that Spirit Stones pre-date the Fall (Isha's tears to communicate with her children through the veil). Does that mean that before the Fall, Eldar were stripping their kin of their souls and forging them into Spirit Stones to communicate with their gods? Grimdark indeed Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 12:45

@Ynneadwraith wrote:
Again meandering off topic, but until we get some new news we might as well Wink

In one of the Path novels it's revealed that Spirit Stones are indeed the crystalised remains of old eldar spirits that died during the Fall, which rise and dance on the Crone Worlds before collapsing into Spirit Stones.

What's odd about that is that the eldar myths are pretty specific in that Spirit Stones pre-date the Fall (Isha's tears to communicate with her children through the veil). Does that mean that before the Fall, Eldar were stripping their kin of their souls and forging them into Spirit Stones to communicate with their gods? Grimdark indeed Smile
I'm willing to bet it's more like using the name of a mythical item (Isha's Tears) to describe something new that resembles said mythical item.

I don't tend to put much stock in the Eldar myths, I see them more as in universe stories than actual historical accounts. Asuryan didn't create the Eldar for instance, the Old Ones did.
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Ynneadwraith
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 12:59

Yeah I agree with you on the mythical representation thing.

What I view the Eldar myths as is something similar to how real-world myths formed the basis of a culture, recording select parts of their history in a mythical format (and outright making some other stuff up so it looks cool/has a moral).

For instance, it's my interpretation that Asuryan (or rather Kurnous and Isha) are psychic manifestations of the Eldar's racial memory of the Old Ones that created them, who became sentient entities in their own right.

However, I do like the idea that they're a mythical name used to represent a new piece of technomancy. Very much fits with the eldar's outlook on the universe, and how their minds work. For instance, they name their main battle-tank 'Falcon' after the mythical consort of Asuryan, not 'dakka-laser tank Mk382' Wink

You have officially contributed to my internal headcanon!

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 13:51

AFAIK all names of the units and vehicles are Imperial names. Noone knows how Eldar (or any other xenos army) name their units and tanks. For Eldar the "Falcon" may as well be "Small Tank" in Eldar language. I thought it obvious since I am sure that most Eldar have no idea what is a falcon or hawk or scorpion or baanshee.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 14:34

Yeah I do like the idea that a lot of the names are Imperial combat designations (works especially well for Tau vehicles). However, in the eldar codex it states that the Falcon is named after Faolchu, the avian consort of Asuryan, so we know it's rooted in myths rather than just being a technical designation Smile

Personally, I prefer the idea that they're translations. No, there aren't 'scorpions' per-se in Eldar fauna, but 'scorpion' is the closest Gothic translation for what the Eldar are talking about Smile

I remember reading ages ago a fluff piece in one of the eldar codices about an Imperial ambassador that spent a decent amount of time among the Craftworld Eldar. It's those sort of early first-contact style encounters, presumably from before everything went sour, that I think these translations would come from Smile

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 15:06

Yea. Perhaps Falochu - Falcon... given the avian basis and the attempt to "humanize" the xenos name, Falcon sounds perfectly fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 15:57

Falcon may be a bastardization of the eldar name by the imperial ordo nominarium (which I just made up), very much like Spanish conquistadores named new things they discovered in mexico, Montezuma comes to mind, Motecuhzoma being the original.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 16:03

Latest leak! Bad news: 'Aeldari' is a thing...




BTW, definitely think you're right on that front Logan Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar Triumvirate    Wed Jan 25 2017, 16:12

Anyone else notice the RED incubi?

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