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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Incubi tactica    Wed Jan 18 2017, 10:43

I was (and still am, tbh) skeptic of this unit, but reading @skulnbonz batrep that got necroed yesterday (Somehow I missed it when it first came out) inspired me to play the Incubi that I had shelved since the dawn of time.

Is anyone using incubi with success? How do you field them?

I'm thinking about multiple units of 2 Incubi + Klaivex. Klaivex seems such a good option for 10 extra points. gives you a guy that hits as 2 incubi (+1 attack and Rampage) and with higher Ini, what makes you able to snipe targets. Im having doubts about what transport to put them on.

Venom seems like the logic choice, BUT I prefer my venoms 36" away from the enemy at all times, and this would deter me from using them agressively or as backfield unit hunters. Also, raiders are more durable, 10 points cheaper and have dissintegrator cannons that kinda fit with the anti-meq role of the unit.

Any tactical advice on them? Are they worth including in a competitive list? Why/why not?

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Jan 18 2017, 11:28

Competitively I'm not so sure though I have always loved them.

I believe they work best in units of 4 w/klaivex in most likely a raider though a venom's low profile can be it's own boon.

They really work best as a counter assault unit in my mind. Careful targeted problem solving, like a scalpel. Not the elite shock troops they portray in the fluff sadly a role best served by grots.

In that vein 2 5 man squads in venom work well alongside a Grotesquerie. 2 turbo boosting does a lot to alter your opponents target priority and I've always found the only way u mitigate the frailty of incubi is to not get shot at.

The benefits of a 5 man squad is that they will on average kill 5 meq, leaving you to clean up on your opponents turn safe in your bubble from shooting before continuing on it way.

Of note I have a list planned running 8 w/klaivex in a tantalus. I'll let you know how it goes.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Jan 18 2017, 12:15

Here are my few cents:

They are assault unit and therefore they need support. Support in the form of Armour of Misery bubble, or Heroes' Path is a good idea for getting units out of cover and more LD shenanigans. They need other units to crack transports and prepare their targets.

Their number depends greatly on the intended target. The sweet spot IMO is 2+KlaivexSuch unit has high probability of clearing the enemy 5-man unit up to last 1 or 2 members, keeping them locked for the enemy shooting phase in CC with reasonable chance that the enemy won't run. If the enemy unit numbers more, a double charge is a good idea but I do not see that often. Klaivex + minimum complement maximizes the points efficiency as well.

The no-grenade issue is mitigated by tankshocking or Death Jester. You need another unit to act in concert with them to tank shock the target out.

Another thing - I never take a Venom with them. Raider is more durable and cheaper.
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Jan 18 2017, 17:28

a unit of 3 models can always regroup so long as there is one guy left standing without rolling on double 1's, worth keeping in mind. Besides 10 attacks on a charge + rampage is pretty decent for a 3 man squad really.
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 05:09

I really like the idea of running MSU 3-man Incubi with Klaivex in Raiders. @aurynn, what sort of success have you had with tankshocking?

I assume you'd be using the Raiders you use to carry them? Chain Snares or Shock Prows?
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 10:08

I prefer them as a counter assault unit. Haven't used them in a long time but multiple units of 3+Klaivex might be the way to go.....in fact, how about running 6 units in a double CAD......hmmmm

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 10:47

How can tank shocking help with cover? If the enemy just re position further behind cover you're still in trouble.

I'd run 3 dude squads but I'm waiting for my toughest girls of the galaxy delivery because I'm not a fan of my metal Incubbi...

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 11:49

The enemy has to reposition himself "shortest distance from their original position while staying in coherency". So you can aim and know when he will end up.

I believe tankshocking being a crucial skill for us to master. It is difficult as it adds a layer of planning to already complicated game. But the rewards are that our high Initiative is not wasted and/or that we can do damage not only in shooting phase and assault phase, but also in the movement phase, which is quite unique among the armies. It is supported by overal fastness of our units and cheap vehicles with 5pts tankshock upgrade.

As for success - for me tankshocking is something I am able to do on games of 1500+ didnt actually try it on smaller scale. T2 is where it all happens. T2 is where I tankshock, shoot and assault all in one turn. I tankshock stuff out of cover for a spray of disintegrators, I tankshock them to open them for incubi, I tankshock deathstars to deal crippling blows. Invisibility does not help you against Tank Shock. T2 is probably THE turn for us.

To put in some numbers - A powerfist marine has a 27% chance to stop the tankshock on AV10. Mere Frag grenade marine has less than 10% chance. Factor in the possibility of failure into your tactics and have a backup tankshocker. Positioning is very tricky while you have to conform to all the limits of the unit's movement and how close they can get to each other.

I use only snares. Shock Prows are way too expensive and you would have to build your whole list around them. Paying less than 10% for a Raider's tankshock is kewl. Three times as much for the S7 hit when I can buy a lance for 5pts? Naaah.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 18:58

Incubi are bad, quite possibly the most overpriced unit in the codex. I did a comparison between them and Howling Banshees a while ago to drive the point home and it still holds. If you like them you can use them in casual games but competitively never. You're better off with Mandrakes or Grotesques in that slot.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 20:04

Pardon me, but comparing AP2 unit to AP3? Not comparable. If you are trying to use Incubi for tasks for Banshees, you are simply using them wrong. I am not saying that they could not be cheaper or get tormentors back, but do I would not dare insult Incubi with their access to cheap Assault Vehicle by comparing them to S3 MEQ assaulters. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 20:12

I would run squads of three in venoms, and now that I've read aurynns tank-shocking, i might take snares. incubi are best in squads of three as you want them to tie up backfield long-range units (tau broadsides, shooty terminators, devastators, longfangs ...) for a turn and assault something else in your next turn. don't just bash their hammer with yours by assaulting an assault unit. keep in mind that if a unit isn't on an objective, or shooting you, it might as well be dead. so keep out of range of short range stuff and out of sight of long range stuff. use your speeeeeeeed to tie up the long range stuff and outmanoeuvre the short-range stuff. You can turbo-boost incubi into their deployment T1 and assault T2. this basically gives their artillery 1 turn to do anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 20:13

I would run squads of three in venoms, and now that I've read aurynns tank-shocking, i might take snares. incubi are best in squads of three as you want them to tie up backfield long-range units (tau broadsides, shooty terminators, devastators, longfangs ...) for a turn and assault something else in your next turn. don't just bash their hammer with yours by assaulting an assault unit. keep in mind that if a unit isn't on an objective, or shooting you, it might as well be dead. so keep out of range of short range stuff and out of sight of long range stuff. use your speeeeeeeed to tie up the long range stuff and outmanoeuvre the short-range stuff. You can turbo-boost incubi into their deployment T1 and assault T2. this basically gives their artillery 1 turn to do anything.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sat Jan 21 2017, 23:41

Incubi are not just killers. They are a serious threat. Even if they die without landing a single blow they can do their job. Takes some shooting to bring them down. Incubi can hurt even the best infantry. They are dangerous. And either they will do their business or allow others to do it. :-)
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hekatrixxy
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Sun Jan 22 2017, 06:53

I'm looking forward to hearing what Brian and Thor have to say about Incubi in the upcoming splintermind episode's optimistic archon section.

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Lyndon
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Tue Jan 31 2017, 07:03

So would I be better starting my incubi on the board in venoms or WWP them in with my archons in venoms?
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Lyndon
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Tue Jan 31 2017, 07:04

I have two four man units inc klaivex and an archon withveacj for the plasma grenade and a 2++ .
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Tue Jan 31 2017, 07:07

My friend has used them like this with great success, I was interested to know ihow theyd work if archons had WWP and deep strike them Right in their where you need them. He's never tried this btw he just carries in on venom.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Tue Jan 31 2017, 08:00

I haven't used incubi in awhile. Raiders seem better for delivering them when compared to a venom. With the raider you get an optional 3+ and an additional hull point. Usually any transport that is trying to deliver a brutal melee squad is either going to jink at some point or go flat out. I don't rely on the disintegrator. It sucks to sacrifice the shooting but, getting the unit inside to a target is the priority.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Tue Jan 31 2017, 08:31

I do wish we could trade in the Disintegrator for AV 11 on the front...  I would totally buy it for 5 pts.  Then again I think what really makes our army a satisfying challenge is not our fragility (that would come through in points costs, ostensibly) it's that many of our units are overcosted for what they do, and certain aspects of our units get in the way of each other.  E.g. Jinking vehicles snapshot but often need to do so to try and survive a turn, Archons have a great Ballistic skill but are normally rarely going to make the most of it, Mandrakes should sit back and shoot in cover but pay in points for Strength 4 and 2 attacks base, kabalites have good WS and I but not good enough to merit them in Close combat, Power from Pain only confers role-neutral and melee benefits but we often field quite a few shooty units, etc. etc. etc. and it all adds up.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Tue Jan 31 2017, 20:26

@Lyndon wrote:
So would I be better starting my incubi on the board in venoms or WWP them in with my archons in venoms?

I would suggest not using WWP to bring your incubi in. I'm fairly certain that you cannot charge out of the WWP and as such would leave a turn of the incubi just standing there(to be shot), along with the possibility of not even bringing them in until later turns.

Venom or raider is the suggest way to get em around. Read the batrep OP mentioned if you're interested in some excellent Incubi play.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Feb 01 2017, 06:33

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Incubi are bad, quite possibly the most overpriced unit in the codex.

I think you forgot hellions, wyches, and the voidraven.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Feb 01 2017, 06:45

With DftS, the Voidraven goes from being terrible to being a not-great flyer.

Wyches are bad but they're also half the price of Incubi, ob-sec, have assault grenades, have a shooting attack, have combat drugs, and have an invul in close combat.

Hellions are bad but they're also cheaper, more mobile, and less likely to be a priority target.

Incubi are 20 points *a piece* for something that's going to be swinging at I1 if it charges through terrain and has no shooting and no invul save whatsoever. They also occupy an incredibly crowded slot, shared with Mandrakes (36 point stealth shrouded objective holders), Blasterborn, Wracks, and Grotesques. For the 60 points it takes to get a squad of 3 of them, you could have a squad of 5 warriors with a blaster for cheaper.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Feb 01 2017, 19:37

yes everything in our army goes down like a wet sack of potatoes to a stiff breeze but I guess using incubi depends on your meta. If you're in a heavy SM meta then incubi can be a total godsend. If I'm playing against a SM player I'd much rather bring 3 incubi than 5 kabalites warriors with a blaster. Given the proper chance incubi can easily kill a crap ton more than Hellions, wyches or Mandrakes could even dream of. 3+ armor, AP2 and you have my points. Even if they do swing at I1 in their initial charge, in the next round of combat they'd get the first swing. Naturally I wouldn't trust them to go against a death star but small annoying groups of 5 SM on an objective? Wet dreams. And nightmares.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Wed Feb 01 2017, 20:02

Incubi do something the other units don't. They slaughter TEQ.
They slaughter MEQ too but you can do it with more bodies for the same price.
TEQ is where they shine.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi tactica    Thu Feb 02 2017, 09:07

I just wish they had assault grenades.
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