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 Power from Pain is incredible

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mattblowers
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 13:00

When I first got the codex, I really misjudged how game changing Power from Pain is. Coming from other factions where you expect to do the heavy lifting in turns 1-3 seeing that DE got nothing on turn 1, 6+ FNP turn 2, and FNP and turn 3 on majority T:3 models I thought it was absolutely crummy. As I'm getting grips with DE I realize how powerful it is with this army. You start out the game holding back and then gradually get your game plan going. By the end of the game your units are more powerful while your enemies are weaker. Suddenly your warriors and reavers are fearless and will need to be wiped out completely to remove from an objective. I really underestimated how much it can help swing the games in your favor. If it were more like older editions where fearless was much less common than today it would be an even bigger deal. It still really allows you some sneaky ways to creep up on your opponent and take them off guard. Being that DE are a less common army and PfP is not that familiar an ability, It's really messed with my opponents. They didn't take into account how resilient I am end game and when they realized they needed to bring more resources to bear, it was too late and I outscored them.

Reavers seemed to benefit the most as the remnants of units needed that extra boost to stick it out end game. What other units benefit the most from it? (other than grotesques of course, the Covens PfP table giving them fearless early on is necessary, not just a nice bonus)
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 14:26

Against some armies, Fear is huge. And rarely I've had Eternal Warrior play a major role as well. Furious Charge can definitely play a big part, and more than once I've had units saved by gaining Fearless late game.

The DE have great alpha strike game, and the PFP table definitely gives as good comeback game as well.

I find that the typical DE win starts strong, looks like you screwed up in the middle, and swings back your way in the end. The PFP rule is a big part of that.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 15:03

Coven PfP is a huge buff in the early turns, but is relively useless until eternal warrior kicks in. Try to kill a dark artisan from turn 5 forward to get that warlord kill.
Basic PfP is priceless end game. Fusious charge and rage make 5 kabalite a deadly CC unit even against a dedicated CC unit. With fearless everything is a tarpit.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 15:22

Three words - Kabalite Raiding Party ... and two more words - Animus Vitae. Loads of fun with 5+FNP since T1. Makes you even forget you have to take the Hellions. :-P
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 15:44

Lots of taxes in a KRP and no obsec. Not a fan of it.
Animus Vitae, does it work for you? I tried it a couple of times and it never did anything, then a very costly HQ usually dies. Granted I'm very unlucky with my rolls.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 16:12

Personally not a fan of it. I hated the Ultramarine Doctorines because I was constantly forgetting to use them, and PFP just amplifies this.

It would be nicer to just have a straight buff (FNP, Fearless, etc) rather than the progression.

KRP may have been OK if we got ObSec in there too, but at the time of release GW was trying to tone down the powercreep (which makes you LOL now seeing everything released since).
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 17:28

Deleted. I was thinking of the old writeup of animus vitae.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 18:08

I take Animus for fun. It has roughly 20% chance to improve the PFP, which is OK.
ObjSec is nice but not really needed. You just play differently. CAD is boring. RSR does not have ObjSec and people still play it. I dont see anything there as a tax. Not even the Hellions. The only problem with the formation I have is that it should have been a Wych Raiding party. Purely melee oriented Formation with Wyches, Hellions and Reavers.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 20:28

PFP is nice but i never thought of it as incredible.

I think it needs an overhaul and buffing to be honest.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Tue Jan 17 2017, 23:46

@aurynn wrote:
RSR does not have ObjSec and people still play it.

I think the majority of those people are silly. Giving up objective secured for 1 extra FA slot is rarely worth it, though I've seen a small number of RSR lists that were good, in specific circumstances.

Almost every RSR list I've seen could be made better by changing it to a CAD.

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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 00:53

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
RSR does not have ObjSec and people still play it.

I think the majority of those people are silly. Giving up objective secured for 1 extra FA slot is rarely worth it, though I've seen a small number of RSR lists that were good, in specific circumstances.

Almost every RSR list I've seen could be made better by changing it to a CAD.
Doesn't the RSR give 3 FA slots, not 1?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 01:01

@stevethedestroyeofworlds wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
RSR does not have ObjSec and people still play it.

I think the majority of those people are silly. Giving up objective secured for 1 extra FA slot is rarely worth it, though I've seen a small number of RSR lists that were good, in specific circumstances.

Almost every RSR list I've seen could be made better by changing it to a CAD.
Doesn't the RSR give 3 FA slots, not 1?

It does give 3 extra FA slots.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 03:25

Oh, that's right. My bad. Still, I stand by my assertion that most lists are better using CADs rather than RSR. The tax to make 2 CADs isn't that high when you can buy a lhamean as a 10 point HQ.

So basically, if you're going pure DE, use CADs, and if you're allying in Eldar or something, use a CAD and buy more eldar instead of more DE FA stuff. Tactically, almost any way you flip it, you're better off using a CAD than RSR.

In my opinion, the only DE formation/detachment worth a look is the grotesquerie, with very situational use for the CTC and Dark Artisan.

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stevethedestroyeofworlds
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 05:39

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Oh, that's right. My bad. Still, I stand by my assertion that most lists are better using CADs rather than RSR. The tax to make 2 CADs isn't that high when you can buy a lhamean as a 10 point HQ.

So basically, if you're going pure DE, use CADs, and if you're allying in Eldar or something, use a CAD and buy more eldar instead of more DE FA stuff. Tactically, almost any way you flip it, you're better off using a CAD than RSR.

In my opinion, the only DE formation/detachment worth a look is the grotesquerie, with very situational use for the CTC and Dark Artisan.
I can see a use for RSR when there are detachment limits. Lots of reavers to back up a grotesquerie and maybe a Hero's path. CAD is better in the vast majority of cases though

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 07:37

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Oh, that's right. My bad. Still, I stand by my assertion that most lists are better using CADs rather than RSR. The tax to make 2 CADs isn't that high when you can buy a lhamean as a 10 point HQ.
That is true, however since I never build without a proper HQ it is less of an advantage for me. The fact that I CAN take 1 Lhamaean as HQ does not mean I WILL unless in 2nd detachment with the first being led by a proper HQ. Its just personal thing, but one that I am unwilling to step over out of principle. One Lhamaean will never get the chance to lead my army. :-)
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 19:22

@stevethedestroyeofworlds wrote:

I can see a use for RSR when there are detachment limits. CAD is better in the vast majority of cases though

Yeah, like I said originally, I've seen a few lists where it makes sense in specific circumstances(like due to tournament detachment limits), but in the vast majority of cases, CADs will be better. Even in the cases where it wasn't deplorable that they took RSR, it likely would have been a lateral move for them to take a CAD instead. Giving up 3 FA slots to give every unit of Kabalites and almost every Transport objective secured? Yeah, that's probably worth giving up 3 min squads of reavers, or paying a 10 point lhamean tax. Wink

@aurynn wrote:
The fact that I CAN take 1 Lhamaean as HQ does not mean I WILL unless in 2nd detachment with the first being led by a proper HQ.

Even still, we're solely talking about a second detachment here for the extra FA slots, so the 10 point HQ applies. Wink

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power from Pain is incredible   Wed Jan 18 2017, 19:53

Now you made me want to take out a KRP for a ride! :-D
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