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SpiritualLiege
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PostSubject: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 06:46

Hey there everybody! I've recently begun building a Dark Eldar army, and I had a few questions about some of the units.

Firstly, are units such as Wyches and Wracks really that bad? I really like the look of them, but a lot of people seem to suggest that they're almost unplayable. I'm completely fine with running units that aren't the absolute best in the codex as long as they can pull their weight.

Secondly, is an Archon all that good as an HQ choice? Even with the heightened weapons skill and ballistics skill, I feel like a Haemonculus is the better choice in most situations. Am I missing something?

Finally, if a formation says that I can take Kabalite Warriors, can I take Kabalite Trueborn in the same spot?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 07:06

1. Yes and No. At the highest levels wasting 10 pts per unit to turn cardboard kabalites into craypaper wyches adds up. At casual/terribad level it doesn't make a difference Neither is going to do much. Realize that you've traded a 24" firing range you should never be in any way for a 12" firing range that you DEFINITELY shouldn't be within. You're definitely not going to lose games solely because you took wyches over kabalites tho.

2. NO. Absolutely god awful. There's only 4 scenarios you should take an archon.

A. You're trying out the Purge Cotorie Formation from the Start Collecting box.
B. Your strategy relies on a combination of multiple Webway Portals and Courts of the Archon (IN DIFFERENT UNITS)
C. You're using a WWP with Craftworld Eldar Firedragons. This archon should be bare bones except for the WWP, a blaster, and MAYBE a helm of Spite or Armour of misery but buy that artifact last.
D. You're spamming fortune in a Craftworld list and require a third shadowfield for your deathstar.

A succubus or Haemonculus is always a better choice, but if you don't have a direct need for an artifact or a WWP they should be substituted for a Court of the Archon consisting of either just a Lahmian or a couple Medusae.

3. Yes.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 08:42

If I may offer a little different POV. Most people here won't share it and I know and understand the reasons, but this is what my experience taught me on casual and (admittedly not the top) tourney games.

1. Wracks I don't really know as I dont play Covens, but Wyches I still count among the best assault units in the game for the cost... BUT... they are not easy to play due to their weaknesses and you have to have the rest of your army supplement them since you are commiting forces into assault. For example: I disagree about having my forces far from the enemy. I want those Kabalites in RF range, which is 12''. I want any unit with a champion within 8" of the enemy for the HWG throw. Wyches laugh at high saves, with Drugs and PfP their power can be incredible. 4++ model that laughs at Powerfists and Thunderhammers for 10 points is bad? :-) But I say again - they are not easy to play with as you have to GET them to the CC, but that can be said about most of our units. :-)

2. Archon is like a big wych. Tooled, he is little short of 150... okay... but he is not supposed to be a great killer or challenge beast. He and his agoniser, shadowfield and Armour of Misery (my setup) is a tactical advantage, or offensive weapon. His role can differ every battle without changing the list - and it should. Drop him with Medusae in a Raider if you want your medusae to flame twice this battle and let him soak the damage. Let him die if you know that the medusae will give you a great tactical advantage next turn. Or charge him even wounded and without SF into the enemy with his Agonizer. He is a unit killer, MC killer, bike killer, counter charger and a tank. He is a threat to enemy's gameplans. He is NOT character killer. He is a unit of himself should you need him to be. An easily hidden unit, reasonably fast, but requires thinking. He can soak the heaviest of weapons onto himself. Succubus on the other hand is a challenge beast.

So what does your list need? Tactical flexibility or Character hunter? Do you need your character to hunt 2+ armour or 3+ is enough?

I consider taking 1 Lhamaean as HQ and hiding her a very cowardly thing. :-) But thats a personal decision and treat it as such. :-)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 09:16

Whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion I have to disagree on Wyches being "among the best assault units in the game for the cost". IMO they barely even qualify as an assault unit as their damage output is atrocious! It takes two Wyches, on the charge, to take out a single Tau Fire Warrior - a model that is hardly the epitome of close combat prowess. And that assumes that they even get into close combat in the first place, which with T3 and (effectively) no save, will be a struggle at the best of times.

Until such time as GW makes Wyches worthwhile I would strongly urge any DE player to avoid them like the glass plague.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 09:34

Thats why I charge them into the likes of Broadsides and with good drug roll or FC - Riptides. Fire warriors are not a good target. Why would I charge something with 4++ into trash or mass attacks? I want them facing something with either low count, high power attacks or something that shoots a lot and is tough. TBH I sometimes let them DS between enemy backfield armour and wreck them one a turn with HWG throw, HWG assault and mass S4 from T3. 3HP down per turn reliably. Whirlwinds, Predators, Devastators, Terminators, Obliterators, etc... certainly not massed infantry.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 10:11

I'm not sure how Wyches even survive overwatch against Broadsides. A unit of 3 will kill 4 of your Wyches through overwatch even if there are no other Tau units within 6" to add their supporting fire. If you face a lot of AV10 vehicles then I guess you might consider Wyches but I'm fairly sure my opponents would simply shoot them off the table on the turn they deep strike, long before they get to charge into a parking lot.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 12:01

Thats usually cool with me. The more points in parking lot, the less points in infantry and if that infantry turns around from the field to shoot my wyches in their backfield, I will gladly take it. I need my blasters more than wyches in backfield. They are a major threat if left unattended. They are priceless in some matchups, but they can be a threat every game.
I try to play the game in the way that every unit threatens something. Its easier to threaten than to defend. If I present the wyches, I expect him to shoot them or leave them. The trick is to have both options bad for him.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 14:05

OP, as you can see Wyches are a sore spot on many an Archons mind. Some people can use them, others cannot (I fall into the Cannot category). Warriors just seem to be easier to use since they can both assault AND shoot (and the shooting is OK for their point cost).

Wracks are better than Wyches, but still not that great. They have 1 formation (2 wrack units in venoms) that allows us to deploy nothing at the beggining of the game, then get a guaranteed Turn 1 arrival of the formation. This can be used in specific circumstances, but as a begginer I would recomend staying away from this until you learn a little more about the True Kin.

However, if you want to take 1 minimum squad of wracks, go for it and see how they work or you! T4 and FNP can be nice if they are also sitting in cover holding on objective.

Archons are just too expensive. If you put him in a unit of decent CC guys, it will end up being a large chunk of your army. We dont have ANY survivability, so we try not to put "Please Kill Me" signs on our units. If you have an Archon, he will always be walking around with that sign on his back.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 14:07

Count Adhemar wrote:
are no other Tau units within 6" to add their supporting fire.

Not to derail the topic, but supporting fire is MODELS within 6" not UNITS within 6" Even a large percentage of Tau players get this wrong, had to gently remind 2 Tau players to look up the rule in my last tournament. The second guy was on a top 5 team at ATC last year. /back on topic
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 15:09

Have to remember that. Thanks @mattblowers. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 16:14

Thanks for the replies everybody, you've given me a lot to think about.

My original plan was to have a kitted out Succubus with a webway portal join a massive unit of Wyches. That way, I could have the Wyches eat bullets from the overwatch to ensure that my Succubus gets in to combat safely. Would that work, or am I being stupid?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 16:16

Not stupid, but short sighted. Wych balls are capped at 15 bodies and therefore 15 wounds. Grotesques on the other hand are capped at 10 bodies, t5 tho, but 30 wounds. Wyches cost 10 points per wound grotesques cost 11.6ppw.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 16:19

mattblowers wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
are no other Tau units within 6" to add their supporting fire.

Not to derail the topic, but supporting fire is MODELS within 6" not UNITS within 6" Even a large percentage of Tau players get this wrong, had to gently remind 2 Tau players to look up the rule in my last tournament. The second guy was on a top 5 team at ATC last year. /back on topic

Sorry but the rule is "friendly models with this special rule in units within 6" of the charging unit's target". So if the unit has at least one model within 6" of the target then all models in that unit who have the Supporting Fire rule get to fire.

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 16:32

Dang, you are correct. The TO made the ruling for all of Tau so I was just calling him over to confirm his ruling. Conga line is back on the menu.

I bet this gets FAQed as the void shield was even more clear that you could Conga line and they ruled that out.

My apologies for unnecessary derail:
/back on topic
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Vokaze
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 17:09

On the same line as noob questions regarding Wych's, Can a succubus join a unit of wyches and take a Venom as a transport right out the gate with a minimum unit of Wych's being 5? I read a tactic that using a Succubus with a small unit of Bloodbrides etc (Kitted out of course) on a Venom can cause some serious backline damage.

I wouldn't think you could add a succubus to a unit like this and give them a Venom as it would boost the model count to 6?
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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 18:13

Bloodbrides as a whole are the worst unitin the dex lol pretty sure their minimal number now is 5 though against the 3 foe the last Dex.

Wyches can still be used if your smart and don't mind sacrificing things to over watch, but a lot of players dislike them. If you want wyches, take some coven stuff, namely heamis to add to wych squads. Take them out the unit and charge him solo to soak the over watch, or use kymera for the same effect.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 19:22

Use kymeara for that. Keep the haemi in the squad so they don't get swept.

Also op you were watching a 6th edition batrep that's woefully ineffective now.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 19:35

OP, no you cannot put 6 models in a vehicle with 5 model transport capacity.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Fri Jan 13 2017, 22:04

Saying that I vaguely recall one very specific, probably forgeworld, Imperium of Man character, or other variety of unit add-on like that special space marine mini with the old-ass gun(but not that one obvs), That can do so. It accomplished it by having a special rule that explicitly stated it does not take up a transport capacity. It didn't provide particularly great benefits tho and was super niche. No Eldar alliance faction units possess any such verbiage tho.
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Thu Jan 19 2017, 09:33

Hell-o, long time covens player here. wracks are not as bad as people let on, they are not great by any standard though.

in a covens list they are nasty as all heck once a turn passes, always have them go to ground on turn one. they allow you acess to scalpel squadron which in its own right is amazing.

they used to have s4 ap1d6 on the flame template which is sad as now it's only s3, oh well. since if you really want to you can kit out 10 grotesques all with them (expensively I may add) they really are not all too great and, well never really were (liquifier gun option)

the ossifactor on the other hand is not all that bad on them, however you can only have 2 in a group of ten meaning that running them in a raider netting you a grand total of 2 shots (that will probably go off a good percentage of the time i may add forcing your opponent to take a T test on the unit). cant add a haemonculus to net a third shot however due to limitations on transport capacity...

if taken in the Dark Eldar army list however they are pretty terrible as the power from pain table does not compliment them, period.

Do they out perform wyches or warriors? on the charge a 10 unit of wracks 30 poisoned attacks will hurt. badly, supported by a haemonculous, talos or if your feeling silly harlequins will wreck whatever you point them at.

the key really is support. yes you can net 120 poisoned shots out of raider spam + 6 dark lances for the boats. but those guys have to stay on the boats in order to keep mobile and combat effective. they are also going to die on a 2+ with a 5+ save adn maybe FNP5+ when the boat dies. probably running away in the process.

wracks are marginally better in that circumstance, mind you not by much, however the odds of you having your wracks in a raider is smaller as it should be stuck in combat used as a screening unit for a blob of something more dangerous.

covenite fleshcorps however is too restrictive for what you get in it, i avoid it in favor of just about anything else.

anyway, jsut my 2 cents worth about the uses of wracks. not the greatest tool, but it is the only one really that covens has access too without taking allies.

if someone hears you are using dark eldar expecting venom spam and meets a horde army instead they may have issues by the way.

PS 70$ for ten guys...



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SpiritualLiege
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Thu Jan 19 2017, 19:04

You mentioned that you've been playing Covens for a while. How good is a carnival of pain? I've been looking into it, and it seems pretty fun.
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Thu Jan 19 2017, 20:50

I usually just go for a grotesquerie, corpse thief claw, scalpel squadron and maybe a dark artisan.
if your local group allows duplicate formations than these can be taken in some nasty combinations.

the full carnival is kinda weird as i really don't feel comfortable with that many wracks on the field. They are not terrible, but spamming them is both expensive and counter productive in a few ways.

some notes, father/master of pain is ok, but as the game goes on it becomes less and less important.
and (apparently) only works when he is on foot...
the formation goes around this i guess, so that's nice. But the tax, oh goodness the taxes for this...

re-rolling to wound rolls of 1 in Cqc, this is not ok.

if your main melee forces are grotesques (they can get shred 1/6 games via the grotesquerie) flesh gauntlet gives them poisoned attacks at S5 so you can reroll 4+ anyway, same goes for talos except up to toughness 7 (they can get shred...cheap, I favor the ichor injector though).

problem is that most of the covens forces have poisoned attacks meaning that if their strength is = or greater than the toughness of the attacked model, you get to reroll anyway. So if you are playing smart those wracks are hitting on 4+rerollable anyway...

individually the components of the carnival are decent, and thte full thing is impressive, for sure.
These days I just avoid spamming more than 20 wracks on the field and pair them up with harie troups for the lulz.

it is easy to get yourself a -5LD modifier with this army by the way and it should be abused, sadly all the abusive moves come from the clowns though.

the tax formations are: covenite flesh corps, scarlet epicurians (not terrible, but not great either, if i were to take a formation to mass wracks it would be this one, not the other)


Last edited by End Game on Thu Jan 19 2017, 22:05; edited 4 times in total
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Thu Jan 19 2017, 20:54

Carnival is fun, but you need a 2500pts game to field it with upgrades. :-D
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End Game
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Thu Jan 19 2017, 22:08

PS bringing clowns to your carnival means that you can slap a min unit of grotesques in a starweaver. The look on somone's face when the big boys get out of a clown car is priceless...
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some noob questions   Thu Jan 19 2017, 22:09

yea, but watch for their low LD when not escorted. :-D
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